Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-01-09 07:02 PM - Post#86770
This is in response to Martel Locke
What good does a "highly trained,quick response police force and SWAT team" do when the guy has simply run through the door and taken control of the school?
Do you REALLY think there is an SRO at the schools full time? I hate to disabuse you of that notion but you would be wrong. There are two full time at AHS but there are none that are full time at ANY elementary campus.
Someone who is off their rocker and being told by god to go to a school and kill a bunch of kids is probably not going to meet ANY resistance! There were SROs at Columbine that waited for HOURS before going towards school.
You speak of response times. There was a shooter in NY earlier this year that expended close to 100 rounds in less than two minutes. I was told by an SRO that the average response time to the school closest to me was 2.5 minutes. That's a bunch of shooting time there sport.
I think it's a much better plan to at least try to keep the wackos outside where they don't have a school full of 400 targets. I lock the front door of my house, Don't you?
Maybe you run every time you feel that things are not going your way? I don't, I stay and get things changed.
As far as what other districts do or don't do. Richardson locks the front door, Lovejoy has what amounts to a mantrap like what you might see at a jail or an appointment only jewelry store. Frisco locks the front door. The bottom line is I don't care what any other district does for the same reason your mommy didn't care if your friends got their ears pierced. My kids don't go to those districts they go to AISD.
I have been working within the system to get it changed since I picked up my first kindergarten packet over three years ago and have been met with little more than platitudes and hostility.Don't rock the boat in Allen!!
I have no fantasy that any plan would keep out a well rehearsed GROUP of hitters but the reality is that most school attackers are single actors that moved quickly into the school,shoot or stab until the police show up and then kill themselves or go quietly.
Sure it does not happen often but the last time a kid was burned to death was over 50 years ago but you can't turn around in a school w/o seeing sprinklers and extinguishers. I assure you that those are not free either.
You might be told that someone would shoot their way into the school if the door was locked, this has never happened except in Hollywood! There have been hundreds of school shootings in the last 20 years and that has never occurred.
What makes Allen so special that it could never happen here? On the contrary. If someone was looking for a place to really make a statement how long would it take them to find out that AISD thinks a RAPTOR machine and a staffer to run it are ALL that stands between them and 400 bargaining chips or targets.
Those of you that expound on how safe you feel at the school need to realize that nowhere is truly safe but mitigating a threat does not make you weak or paranoid it simply makes you a little more prepared. You wear a seat belt and lock your car doors don't you.
While you can't be ready for everything does that mean you should stay unprepared for anything? Locke the front door. B
The money to put in a locking front door was mentioned to be on the order of $250,000 for ALL of the elementary schools. This money exists and does not have to come from anywhere else.
Martel, No offense but I'm thinking you don't have children. When I didn't have any I would not have given this issue a second thought.
Anyone can feel free to leave a response. I will answer them all.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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wetvet
enthusiast
Posts: 582
Loc: Allen
Reg: 02-26-07
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06-01-09 09:35 PM - Post#86779
In response to Brewer
I would be anxious to see statistics on how many school shootings have occurred where the shooter was an outsider (meaning wasn't a student) versus how many shootings have occurred where a student, or students, were responsible.
Got Water? We do!!
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-01-09 09:49 PM - Post#86780
In response to wetvet
There is almost a perfect bell when you look at school attacks. The largest percentage of primary school perpetrators have ZERO connection to the school while in middle schools it's close to a 50-50 mix. At the other end most of the attacks at high schools are carried out by students or other people well known by the school. B
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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chf
enthusiast
Posts: 574
Loc: NW Allen
Reg: 12-22-07
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06-02-09 09:42 AM - Post#86800
In response to Brewer
Not a reply to anyone in particular, but just to throw in my experience with Plano's locked door/buzz-in system. Before we moved to Allen, our oldest attended Hedgecoxe, where they had the door locked and visitors had to be buzzed in. The first time I ever went to the school, I went to the door, pushed the button, was asked why I was there, answered to eat lunch, and I was buzzed in. At that point I had free access to the school - no one was there to ask me to check in. I could have walked right by the office. No one in the office knew me from Adam, but they just buzzed me in when I said I was there to eat lunch.
So unless Plano's system has been improved, it's really no better than Allen's.
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denisew
Community Expert
Posts: 9241
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 02-18-02
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06-02-09 12:25 PM - Post#86814
In response to chf
they had the door locked and visitors had to be buzzed in.
I have been to a middle school in Plano to drop something off and if they see you to ask what you're there for and then buzz you in . . . well, I had to stand there for quite awhile after I pushed the button alerting them to my presence. I agree that it is not very secure because the office didn't even have direct view of the door across the hallway.
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sco
enthusiast
Posts: 2714
Loc: allen,TX USA
Reg: 10-26-02
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06-02-09 02:36 PM - Post#86822
In response to Brewer
You might be told that someone would shoot their way into the school if the door was locked, this has never happened except in Hollywood!
It really wouldn't be necessary to shoot their way in. All it would take is talking their way in which as noted by other posters probably wouldn't be hard.
The money to put in a locking front door was mentioned to be on the order of $250,000 for ALL of the elementary schools. This money exists and does not have to come from anywhere else.
The money may exist but it certainly will have to come from someplace else. The distric has to make budget decisions and set priorities all of the time. I seriously doubt they have money sitting around unallocated.
Martel, No offense but I'm thinking you don't have children. When I didn't have any I would not have given this issue a second thought.
While Martel may not have children many others who post on this board do have children in the schools. I do not find the cause completely unreasonable but some of the tactics used are questionable at best. Responding to every single inquiry about any school by screaming that there is zero security at Allen schools is the tactic that Martel was objecting to and I share that frustration.
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964Allen
member
Posts: 30
Reg: 12-07-08
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06-02-09 02:42 PM - Post#86823
In response to denisew
I can understand both sides of this argument. For that reason, I'm not taking either side in this post or have any plans of doing so. I just wanted to make the point that the purpose of the RAPTOR program and the person who runs it is not to protect the school against the type of attacks being discussed here. The following is a link to the information released by the district when the program was put into place. It gives a description of what the program is used for.
http://www.allenisd.org/aisdweb.nsf/Content/NR0807...
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-02-09 02:49 PM - Post#86824
In response to sco
The fact remains that there is zero security. Had I known that I would not have moved here. Now I'm here and working to change the way things are done. I spoke to several parents that assumed the front doors were locked during the day but had never had time to visit the school to know otherwise.
Where you at the school board meeting that when was reported that the money WAS available? I was. I first offered to pay for the improvements at the campus my son attends and was rebuffed, I later offered to fund raise and was rebuffed so I really don't care if where the money came from but it is there.
Again, just because another district has a layer of security and does not use it does not mean it can't be done the right way.
B
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-02-09 02:50 PM - Post#86825
In response to 964Allen
Thanks 964!
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Martel_Locke
enthusiast
Posts: 106
Loc: Allen, Texas
Reg: 04-07-08
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06-02-09 03:02 PM - Post#86827
In response to chf
"What good does a "highly trained,quick response police force and SWAT team" do when the guy has simply run through the door and taken control of the school?
Do you REALLY think there is an SRO at the schools full time? I hate to disabuse you of that notion but you would be wrong. There are two full time at AHS but there are none that are full time at ANY elementary campus."
There are 2 SROs full-time at AHS and I remember seeing one SRO the majority of the school day at Ford when I attended it 4 years ago. As for elementary school there is no need for any SROs therefore there are none.
"Someone who is off their rocker and being told by god to go to a school and kill a bunch of kids is probably not going to meet ANY resistance! There were SROs at Columbine that waited for HOURS before going towards school."
Columbine was a different day and age in which nobody had seen a school shoooting on that scale until that day. In the modern day police will not stand outside of a school as they hear shot after shot, they will take immediate action.
"You speak of response times. There was a shooter in NY earlier this year that expended close to 100 rounds in less than two minutes. I was told by an SRO that the average response time to the school closest to me was 2.5 minutes. That's a bunch of shooting time there sport."
Which is unfortunate because a locked door can only do so much to stand up against a man determined to get in and 100 rounds of ammunition.
"I think it's a much better plan to at least try to keep the wackos outside where they don't have a school full of 400 targets. I lock the front door of my house, Don't you?"
I do, but people aren't constantly moving in and out without keys. And again, if someone wants in to my house they would be able to manage to gain access through one of our dozen downstairs windows or one of the three doors only one of which is metal.
"Maybe you run every time you feel that things are not going your way? I don't, I stay and get things changed."
Which I admire, but the manner of which you are attempting to do so is of poor choice. Every single time a newcomer brings up elementary schools you are there to bring all of AISD down and roll them in the dirt and thus scaring off said newcomers.
"As far as what other districts do or don't do. Richardson locks the front door, Lovejoy has what amounts to a mantrap like what you might see at a jail or an appointment only jewelry store. Frisco locks the front door. The bottom line is I don't care what any other district does for the same reason your mommy didn't care if your friends got their ears pierced. My kids don't go to those districts they go to AISD."
Well if you don't care so much about the other districts why are you trying to emulate them so much? Personally I would rather not go to school in a prison....
"I have been working within the system to get it changed since I picked up my first kindergarten packet over three years ago and have been met with little more than platitudes and hostility.Don't rock the boat in Allen!!"
Speaking of platitudes....
Rocking the boat generally is met with resistance no matter where you go. If you are meeting exceptional resistance maybe thats a hint.
"I have no fantasy that any plan would keep out a well rehearsed GROUP of hitters but the reality is that most school attackers are single actors that moved quickly into the school,shoot or stab until the police show up and then kill themselves or go quietly."
Which is why locked doors would stop little. Even a locked door can be unlocked by a sinister person with a good excuse.
"Sure it does not happen often but the last time a kid was burned to death was over 50 years ago but you can't turn around in a school w/o seeing sprinklers and extinguishers. I assure you that those are not free either."
Come to think of it that is a good reason to not lock the doors. That is not my primary problem with this proposition.
"You might be told that someone would shoot their way into the school if the door was locked, this has never happened except in Hollywood! There have been hundreds of school shootings in the last 20 years and that has never occurred."
And in the last 200 years there has never been a school shooting in Allen yet you fear it will happen. If a school shooting could happen in Allen, a shooter could very well break a glass door.
"What makes Allen so special that it could never happen here? On the contrary. If someone was looking for a place to really make a statement how long would it take them to find out that AISD thinks a RAPTOR machine and a staffer to run it are ALL that stands between them and 400 bargaining chips or targets."
Nobody ever said it couldn't happen here, but you assume that a locked door or an armed guard would stop said person from making that statement.
"Those of you that expound on how safe you feel at the school need to realize that nowhere is truly safe but mitigating a threat does not make you weak or paranoid it simply makes you a little more prepared. You wear a seat belt and lock your car doors don't you."
Again with the personal questions. I am not against being pro-safety but I am whole-heartedly against fear mongering.
"While you can't be ready for everything does that mean you should stay unprepared for anything? Locke the front door. B"
Hah, he's punny too.... Granted being prepared for everything is the best you can get it, but in all honesty locking the doors solves nothing, I'll explain in a post later.
"The money to put in a locking front door was mentioned to be on the order of $250,000 for ALL of the elementary schools. This money exists and does not have to come from anywhere else."
Above statement repeated.
"Martel, No offense but I'm thinking you don't have children. When I didn't have any I would not have given this issue a second thought."
No, I do not have children, better yet, my own life is the one at stake when something happens at AHS. I have grown up in Allen and attended Anderson, then Bolin, Ford, Lowery and now Allen High. I was here for the bomb hoaxes in the early 2000's and remember the ridiculous number of heroin deaths in Plano, and when half of Wylie burned in a drought. I fully understand where you are coming from I have a sister that is 9 and goes to Bolin. I am for heightened security but within reason. If I was looking for a home in north texas and visited a school in Allen and saw a SRO officer sitting in the office, I would say "hey great!" then question if there was a specific reason why they had to be there, what crime called for the intense security? If I seemed contradictory above it was because I wrote two halves of this 3 hours apart, so let me restate my position: I have no problem with proper school security but the way that Brewer has gone about spreading his message is what has prompted this conversation.
I'll ramble less and contradict myself less in the coming posts
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vrs
enthusiast
Posts: 2845
Loc: Allen, Texas
Reg: 04-20-00
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06-02-09 03:39 PM - Post#86830
In response to Martel_Locke
According to the CDC, more than 200,000 children 14 years of age and younger are injured each year in playground accidents. Most of these accidents are associated with climbing equipment, slides and swings.
More than 1/3 of all playground injuries are severe, with children incurring fractures, internal injuries, concussions, dislocations, and amputations.
Approximately 15 children die each year from these injuries.
Should we remove all the playground equipment from the schools?
Other leading causes of injuries and fatalities among children in this age group include abuse at the hands of a caregiver, car accidents, and - in slightly older children - suicide.
While not dismissing the tragedy that might result from an armed intruder, the fact is that if one is inclined to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on making children safer, there are other preventive initiatives that are statistically far more likely to actually make children safer than storefronts on schools that are only locked during non-peak traffic times.
| Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip are the reason I have trust issues. |
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RRRquilter
enthusiast
Posts: 1471
Loc: Allen
Reg: 05-02-05
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06-02-09 03:50 PM - Post#86833
In response to vrs
My child broke a bone on the playground this year and he was just playing with another child. So even eliminating the playground equipment would have not helped his situation.
I personally do not live in the fear that Brewer does. My kids have a greater chance of dieing with me driving them all over town then they do in the school. I would rather not have the front doors at the schools locked. Just my personal preference.
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-02-09 04:00 PM - Post#86836
In response to vrs
VRS, Why did you never respond to the ten or so e-mails I sent the board on this subject while you were president?
As far as play ground injuries I think you would find that the majority of serious accidents that occurred on "playgrounds" happened at sites that were not configured the way they are here in Allen. I have seen school playgrounds in Michigan that have 8-10 foot drops onto asphalt. The structures @ AISD are over several inches of much softer wood chips. Many older play areas have pinch points that a newer one will not have. There is more chance of getting hurt on any old and poorly maintained school playground. You must also consider the fact that an inner city playground may be old, in poor repair and built over a non-shock absorbing surface. Bottom line you are comparing apples to rocking chairs and I think you know it.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1421
Reg: 06-02-07
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06-02-09 04:03 PM - Post#86837
In response to RRRquilter
When did I say I lived "IN FEAR"? That is called transference. I live in the real world. I do what I can to be careful and prepared and then what happens,happens. There is an old maxim I live by. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Robin L
enthusiast
Posts: 838
Reg: 12-19-07
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06-02-09 05:52 PM - Post#86842
In response to Martel_Locke
Martel,
Very well said. This is the best post I have read from you. No, I'm not being sarcastic, but truly giving you a compliment. I'm not even remotely aware of the ages of the posters on here, but I bet most are adults. To have a high school student weigh in on some of these topics is awesome, IMHO. But this post, also IMHO, was very well debated.
As for the topic, I can't begin to know which side of the fence to sit. I haven't really thought about it. Do I want the district to do every thing humanly possible to keep my child safe? Absolutely. But to what extent and where to draw the line? Both sides here so far have very valid arguments. Unless the schools were prisons - with guards everywhere, wire fences, checking in, being scanned and patted down before visiting, bullet proof buildings, glass, doors, and whatever else I see on tv (no personal experience here) - there is no way to keep the children completely safe. Would locking doors be a deterrent, especially if truly manned the way it should be? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't know.
However, Brewer, I do have to agree with everyone here that the way you come across in replies to potential Allenites is a bit harsh. I can understand your position and reasoning - you are trying to warn other parents of the lack of security, or at least lack of it to your standards, as compared to other districts, and that they should consider that when making such an important decision on where to send their children to school. I admire that. I admire your tenacity to not keep quiet, to be the squeeky wheel so-to-speak. One day your passion may turn into reality. My objection is to the tone that's used. Perhaps if you were to say, "X school is a great school, it earned high marks in xyz - or I'm not sure about X school because my child(ren) are at Y school - but one thing you should consider is that the district doesn't require the doors to be locked in off-peak hours, and I've made it my personal mission to attempt some changes, as I would feel safer with that added level of security. But that's my choice." Instead, it seems you are really angry about it, and it's like "hey, don't think about coming here because the district has absolutely no security and your children won't be safe against some lunatic." No, you are not using that exact language, but that's how it comes across. That's the inference people make and why it seems everyone is hating on you about it. I don't think people completely disagree with you (some may, but still). I think they are just not happy on how it comes across to a potential Allenite, that's all.
As for vrs not responding...not completely sure, but it might have something to do with Open Meetings, not wanting to make promises she can't keep, not wanting to give you incorrect or wrong information, legal issues or advice from an attorney...I don't know, that's for her to respond if she choses. I just thought I'd throw that out there - that there may be a strong reason she and other Board members didn't respond.
That's my 2 cents.
Edited by Robin L on 06-02-09 05:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Maurice
Community Expert
Posts: 4107
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 12-03-01
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06-02-09 06:31 PM - Post#86845
In response to Robin L
I applaud Brewer for his attitude towards preventative measures rather than our usual societal reactive measures. Too many people here in Allen seem to think people who are security conscious like that may 'live in fear' but the fact of the matter is, the real world is a dangerous place. While Allen has not been touched by any school violence as has been described here (and I hope it NEVER happens!!), wishing and hoping it never happens doesn't offer any safety and security. It's good to see people wanting to take an active role in enacting stronger security, the key is to balance that with what resources are available and trying to be an uninvasive as possible.
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Robin L
enthusiast
Posts: 838
Reg: 12-19-07
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06-02-09 06:42 PM - Post#86847
In response to Maurice
I agree.
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vrs
enthusiast
Posts: 2845
Loc: Allen, Texas
Reg: 04-20-00
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06-02-09 07:05 PM - Post#86848
In response to Robin L
As for vrs not responding...not completely sure, but it might have something to do with Open Meetings
I have in my mailbox (that I can find) two emails from Brewer to team of 8. May have been one earlier - I have changed laptops. Anyway, the first I have is dated 8/28/08 and it received a personal response from the superintendent on behalf of the Board explaining when the issue of concern would be on the agenda as well as the timing and process for development of the security report and how to provide input.
The Board has an annual calendar and each academic and operational area is reviewed once each year - there is a two month process of gathering questions, providing feedback, and generating the report.
There was another email on 9/15/08 from Brewer indicating the response was deemed insufficient.
I also sent Brewer a private message reminding him when the subject would be on the Board's agenda. He attended the meeting to hear the discussion and came back the following month to comment in open forum.
I do believe that prior to the August email, there was correspondence and at least one meeting with staff.
So to say Brewer's concerns were "ignored" is somewhat disingenuous. What Brewer did not receive was the answer he wanted.
And that's okay - lots of parents cannot agree on what is best for their own children so it is not surprising that adults who do not share the same background or values or experiences would arrive at different conclusions about what is best for the kids.
The "locked" storefronts will be freewheeling during the main traffic periods (start and end of school) so anyone on God's green earth who intended harm could blend with the crowd and either open fire right away or hide until things quiet down a bit. The "locked" storefronts will only be really in operation during the lower traffic times of the day when a stranger is more likely to be noticed anyway.
You have already seen in this thread where the raptor system in Allen actually appears to be doing a better job of tracking who goes in and out than "I'm here to have lunch with my child" - "okay!" BUZZ
If we are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars keeping kids safe, and knowing what I know about what actually harms children here in our district, I personally do not believe the "locked" storefronts are the best use of that resource.
In short, the locked storefronts create an appearance of being safe. I would rather work on actually being safe.
That being said, I think they are already going in on the new campuses and the retrofit is basically an administrative decision. And I am fine with that (not that it matters anymore!) because I understand that different people can look at the same circumstances and draw different conclusions.
| Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip are the reason I have trust issues. |
Edited by vrs on 06-02-09 11:45 PM. Reason for edit: Replacing Brewer's given name
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Robin L
enthusiast
Posts: 838
Reg: 12-19-07
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06-02-09 08:19 PM - Post#86855
In response to vrs
Wow! Didn't intend for so much personal detail, but that does shed some light on where Brewer is - or is not - coming from. Some say none of the Board responds. I tend to think that if the Board *could* respond personally, or that a personal response is warranted, they would; otherwise there is a PR person or some other individual (in this case the superintendent) who answers. I can think of so many reasons why the Board shouldn't answer individually (though I did get a personal response from one still there thanking me for my appreciation email I sent in January).
It's good to know that some of Brewers efforts are not in vain. I really appreciate ANYONE who volunteers their own time to champion an important cause or give time to schools, neighborhoods, cities, causes, etc. We would not be the nation we are without helping each other and trying to improve where we live.
And your statement "In short, the locked storefronts create an appearance of being safe. I would rather work on actually being safe." is exactly what I took an entire paragraph to say in my earlier post - very succinct!
Brewer, I sure hope you understand where some of us are coming from. I don't mean to be rude and I hope you don't feel that way.
Edited by Robin L on 06-02-09 08:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Robin L
enthusiast
Posts: 838
Reg: 12-19-07
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06-02-09 08:22 PM - Post#86856
In response to Robin L
OK, so, on this topic, I must ask - those of you who want more security, what things would you like? What seems appropriate?
Those of you who think we shouldn't add anything extra, why do you feel that way?
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