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Username Post: Discussion on ELEMENTARY school security.        (Topic#10804)
vm7mm 
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Posts: 1527

Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04

01-14-13 09:38 PM - Post#158608    
    In response to c3lost

Link http://www.allenisd.org/site/default.aspx?PageType...

 
Brewer 
enthusiast
Posts: 1421

Reg: 06-02-07

01-14-13 10:03 PM - Post#158609    
    In response to vm7mm

Pretty much what I have asked for over the last six years. Not perfect but a huge improvement.

Pretty stupid to announce it this far in advance though. I hope no goof ball was planning something for some time in the future and now has to accelerate to get in under the wire. Should have just sent something home the Friday before. Never heard of OPSEC AISD?
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton



Edited by Brewer on 01-14-13 10:07 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DrivinTooFast 
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Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 08:24 AM - Post#158619    
    In response to Brewer

I would say no - AISD has not heard of OPSEC. And all the changes will not make a bit of difference to the next tragedy - We only know how to fix the previous one.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 08:41 AM - Post#158621    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

If it won't help one bit, why has Brewer been asking for it for the past 6 years as he said? The emotional man who asked that all kids be removed from the last AISD Board of Trustees meeting before he went on to emphatically ask for precisely what they have communicated here seemed to think it would.

I would assume that this will also be accompanied by the drills that were asked for as well.

If this really won't help, what do you suggest DTF? Do you really think this won't help...even a bit? I was in the audience of that meeting when the board was told that they "must give our first responders time". It was said that slowing down a mad person looking to hurt our kids is key to allowing time to get the responders to the scene.

The next debate I guess is going to be over armed guards, but I'm not sure it's realistic to think that AISD was going there at this point. Beyond that, what more do you want them to do? They were asked to catch up with Plano and Frisco. I believe they have answered that request. I'm glad they have and think it's the right thing to do, albeit late.
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Edited by mgrayar on 01-15-13 08:42 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DrivinTooFast 
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Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 10:06 AM - Post#158626    
    In response to mgrayar

It's all a show to make worried moms feel better. There is no answer to evil, it is just part of the human condition. Anyone hell bent on killing will not be stopped by a buzzer - which will after some time end up just being a nusance to staff employees.

If you look like you know what you are going you will get buzzed in. I can hide an assault rifle in a sheet cake box and "buzz" - I am in. I can hide 100 30 round clips in a kids hello kitty backpack - "BUZZ" I am in. I can put 100 grenades into a Science project looking thingy - "Buzz" - I am in. I can drive a minivan full of explosive right through the front door.

There is no defense against evil. But now everyone can sleep knowing AISD has increased their proceedures. Its nothing but the human lottery called lfe and sometime you just don't win. You feel helpless and want to do SOMEHTHING, but in reality you are helpless.

 
mgrayar 
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Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 10:28 AM - Post#158631    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

Well, that being said, at least they are finally doing what brewer has asked them to do for six years. He, and probably many others, obviously feel it will at least slow a mad person down. Time is a valuable resource. Even if it gave responders 15 seconds, that is a benefit... no?
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DrivinTooFast 
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Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 11:56 AM - Post#158634    
    In response to mgrayar

Not even slow them down 1 second. All of our elementary schools have large glass windows and large central door openings. Newtown was actually assaulted through a window not a door. It's amazing what an AR-15 does to a window or even a daisy bb gun. Even if you used prison style narrow windows a wirey little kids could get through there with no problem. Plus for every hole you close to get into a school you also close a possible egress point for escaping from an assailant. Plus there are a myiad of ingress points from utility/custodian access points, kitchen staff, loading docks, food delivery,etc. You cannot run a school efficiently in a constant state of lockdown.

I worked at the Pentagon where 26,000 employees entered and exited the building every day - they had real security but that is not feasible for every school in a wealthy district like AISD much less a poorer district.

But let's really be honest your kid has a greater chance of being killed traveling to and from the school than from a killer at the school. According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, 5,202 teens are injured and 48 are killed in automobile crashes during a typical prom weekend. We as a community face much greater dangers than the random act of an evil person. We need to careful not to dedicate too many resources to false promise of complete security.

 
Will 
enthusiast
Posts: 254

Reg: 07-28-09

01-15-13 11:57 AM - Post#158635    
    In response to mgrayar

With any decision like this, there are benefits and costs - not just the money involved in putting locks on the doors, but it can also project that parents are not welcome and decrease parent involvement. This system is exactly the same system that was in place in Sandy Hook and the guy shot his way in. Nothing is to stop someone from showing up at dismissal when everyone is lined up outside and harming far more people than the Sandy Hook tragedy. On the other hand, the lock system would make things much easier for the school when they do need to go on lockdown, which happens more than I would have thought (e.g. if there is a bank robbery in the area or other police activity). I have a hard time knowing where the line is between taking reasonable precautions and living in fear.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 12:04 PM - Post#158636    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

  • DrivinTooFast Said:
Not even slow them down 1 second. All of our elementary schools have large glass windows and large central door openings. Newtown was actually assaulted through a window not a door. It's amazing what an AR-15 does to a window or even a daisy bb gun. Even if you used prison style narrow windows a wirey little kids could get through there with no problem. Plus for every hole you close to get into a school you also close a possible egress point for escaping from an assailant. Plus there are a myiad of ingress points from utility/custodian access points, kitchen staff, loading docks, food delivery,etc. You cannot run a school efficiently in a constant state of lockdown.

I worked at the Pentagon where 26,000 employees entered and exited the building every day - they had real security but that is not feasible for every school in a wealthy district like AISD much less a poorer district.

But let's really be honest your kid has a greater chance of being killed traveling to and from the school than from a killer at the school. According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, 5,202 teens are injured and 48 are killed in automobile crashes during a typical prom weekend. We as a community face much greater dangers than the random act of an evil person. We need to careful not to dedicate too many resources to false promise of complete security.



You made the point. Why was he going through the window? Because he didn't have access through an unlocked door. Now, with this new policy, he wouldn't have access through an unlocked door in Allen either.

How can you say that it isn't slowing someone down a second to have to get through a window rather than an unlocked, unchecked door?

Doesn't really jive. I get your point, and want as much safety as possible, but the fact is every little bit helps.
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


Edited by mgrayar on 01-15-13 12:04 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DrivinTooFast 
enthusiast
Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 12:24 PM - Post#158637    
    In response to mgrayar

I think you are over estimating the vigillance of an AISD employee and a security mindset. In 6 - 12 months, everyone's thoughts will be back to how can we keep the doors open because it takes too long for Mom nancy to drop off Sally's backpack and forgotten lunch. Thankfully that's about the level of crisis that typically happens around here.

In 5 years, you will be lucky to remember the name of Sandy Hook and in 10 years it will be a bad trivia question. Today while the wound is still open and we grieve those precious kids we are in over-reaction mode to over come our feelings of helplessness.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 12:47 PM - Post#158638    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

DTF, you are trying too hard not to admit that it's a step in the right direction and may in fact help. You cannot say it won't help definitively, just like I cannot definitively say it will. So... given the chance it may just save one little life, I'm all for it.

You can run all the speculative scenarios you want, but did you think of this one? What if because Allen was the only district in the area without locked doors, a madman decided it was an easier target? Now at least we are no easier than our neighbors.

It's all speculation, but I applaud the effort, late or not.
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


Edited by mgrayar on 01-15-13 12:48 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DrivinTooFast 
enthusiast
Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 01:05 PM - Post#158639    
    In response to mgrayar

  • mgrayar Said:
DTF, you are trying too hard not to admit that it's a step in the right direction and may in fact help. You cannot say it won't help definitively, just like I cannot definitively say it will. So... given the chance it may just save one little life, I'm all for it.

You can run all the speculative scenarios you want, but did you think of this one? What if because Allen was the only district in the area without locked doors, a madman decided it was an easier target? Now at least we are no easier than our neighbors.

It's all speculation, but I applaud the effort, late or not.





That is a very, very expensive statement and catagorically false. If somebody wants in they are in but if it makes you sleep better knowing there is a buzzer, can't argue with that logic.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 01:54 PM - Post#158641    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

How much would you pay to save a life? You'd have to be a pretty cheap person not to want to have the same or better security for our kids than all other nearby districts.

You act like we are going state of the art. We are barely doing the minimum. This money should have been spent years ago. It's probably paid forby the interest earned off of waiting a decade.

Come on now, there is plenty of waste in the district. Building inadequate schools this year that will be at capacity in two years is a waste of resources, making it necessary to build again. Security is not a waste.
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


 
DrivinTooFast 
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Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 02:02 PM - Post#158642    
    In response to mgrayar

  • mgrayar Said:
How much would you pay to save a life? You'd have to be a pretty cheap person not to want to have the same or better security for our kids than all other nearby districts.

You act like we are going state of the art. We are barely doing the minimum. This money should have been spent years ago. It's probably paid forby the interest earned off of waiting a decade.

Come on now, there is plenty of waste in the district. Building inadequate schools this year that will be at capacity in two years is a waste of resources, making it necessary to build again. Security is not a waste.




Again, that is the mentality that ends up spending millions on DFW puffer/sniffer security machines that end up in the scrap heap before they even get fully deployed.

Maybe we should go to full body scans on entering any building because really what is the cost if it just saves one life. Right?

Again if buzzers make you FEEL safe - fantastic, but let's not confuse the feeling of safety with actual safety. Now hand me my blue blankey, I'm scared of the planes flying overhead.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 02:19 PM - Post#158643    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

So every door should be held wide open all day. Got it. Nobody should be checked in, got it. Cameras for review if anything happens should be turned off, got it.

Do you leave your home unlocked when you are on vacation with a billboard saying open door at (insert address)?

Locked doors and a buzzer...cheap. Your inability to admit they may help even the slightest, priceless!
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


Edited by mgrayar on 01-15-13 02:19 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Nutmeg 
member
Posts: 73

Reg: 11-06-06

01-15-13 02:28 PM - Post#158644    
    In response to mgrayar

How about moats and razor wire at the perimeter 100 feet from the building? Maybe a minefield or a Wipeout-like obstacle course entry? Taking an outlandish position (open all the doors and windows) is as silly as my suggestion.

The point is the inability to prove the effectiveness of any of this spend. I think the comment that indicated students may be more likely to be killed/injured en route to school rather than by a madman while in school is a valid one. Let's take an appropriate and measured step to control entry to the building but let's not get carried away thinking that (a) there are hoards of crazies wandering looking for the easiest elementary school to attack and (b) a door buzzer will make much difference to someone looking to mount some type of attack.

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 04:00 PM - Post#158646    
    In response to Nutmeg

Sifting through your sarcasm I found a salient point.

They are doing exactly what you said, restricting access. Nobody is suggesting that they go further, other than DTF saying its not enough to help.

They are just restricting access as all other local districts do. Why is that bad spend to anyone?
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


Edited by mgrayar on 01-15-13 04:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DrivinTooFast 
enthusiast
Posts: 1874

Reg: 02-20-08

01-15-13 04:59 PM - Post#158648    
    In response to mgrayar

  • mgrayar Said:
So every door should be held wide open all day. Got it. Nobody should be checked in, got it. Cameras for review if anything happens should be turned off, got it.

Do you leave your home unlocked when you are on vacation with a billboard saying open door at (insert address)?

Locked doors and a buzzer...cheap. Your inability to admit they may help even the slightest, priceless!



Oh no my friend this is Allen - we do not have locks and buzzers. We have locks, buzzers, video on all doors, intercom systems, RFID locking systems, infrared cameras, night vision, a centralized monitoring system with uplink feeds to AISD HQ and APD. It will be a cornacopia of technology lasers and CO$T$$$$. All defeated every evening at 6:30pm when all the doors are opened so sports teams can use the courts (a good thing by the way). Brought to you in full color brouchures, powerpoint presentations and sales reps. Because remember, "if it even saves one life".

Heck our stadium ws supposed to have state of the art security installed on it with video monitoring and all that is great in security and the night after we hosted playoff games somebody broke into the stadium and threw all the trash onto the field. Which even with all our security, cameras and monitoring was not discovered until a coach looked out onto the field that monday morning and said "What the f-?" A harmless prank perhaps, but the point is security and safety for elementary schools is myth.

Edited by DrivinTooFast on 01-15-13 05:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
vm7mm 
enthusiast
Posts: 1527

Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04

01-15-13 06:05 PM - Post#158649    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

Just curious... Where did you hear about trash dumped on the field?

 
mgrayar 
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
mgrayar
Reg: 09-25-09

01-15-13 06:33 PM - Post#158652    
    In response to DrivinTooFast

  • DrivinTooFast Said:
  • mgrayar Said:
So every door should be held wide open all day. Got it. Nobody should be checked in, got it. Cameras for review if anything happens should be turned off, got it.

Do you leave your home unlocked when you are on vacation with a billboard saying open door at (insert address)?

Locked doors and a buzzer...cheap. Your inability to admit they may help even the slightest, priceless!



Oh no my friend this is Allen - we do not have locks and buzzers. We have locks, buzzers, video on all doors, intercom systems, RFID locking systems, infrared cameras, night vision, a centralized monitoring system with uplink feeds to AISD HQ and APD. It will be a cornacopia of technology lasers and CO$T$$$$. All defeated every evening at 6:30pm when all the doors are opened so sports teams can use the courts (a good thing by the way). Brought to you in full color brouchures, powerpoint presentations and sales reps. Because remember, "if it even saves one life".

Heck our stadium ws supposed to have state of the art security installed on it with video monitoring and all that is great in security and the night after we hosted playoff games somebody broke into the stadium and threw all the trash onto the field. Which even with all our security, cameras and monitoring was not discovered until a coach looked out onto the field that monday morning and said "What the f-?" A harmless prank perhaps, but the point is security and safety for elementary schools is myth.


You're a bit dramatic.
Learn more about Cystic Fibrosis and how you can help at:
http://www.cff.org

Everyone can make a difference!


Edited by mgrayar on 01-16-13 04:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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