jrob
member
Posts: 75
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-29-09
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12-11-09 09:02 PM - Post#101737
Did anyone else watch this on cable or attend the meeting?
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/new s/c...
Interesting how only a small group is opposing this change.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-11-09 10:13 PM - Post#101741
In response to jrob
"If this is passed, it would effectively stop any new church from forming in Allen".
Mr. Ballard, there is absolutely no truth to your statement and you know it, but you have to substantiate your salary with news clippings .
Mr. Green, no one disagrees with what you said, but it has no bearing whatsoever on the proceedings of the meeting.
And Jim Foster takes the cake, "The Lord rebuke you."
Mr. Foster, I'm sure you made the Lord proud with your totally asinine remark. Shame on you sir. Shame.
These men and their words should be an embarrassment to the groups they represent.
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jrob
member
Posts: 75
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-29-09
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12-11-09 11:07 PM - Post#101746
In response to asmile4u
You can watch the meeting at http://allentx.swagit.com/play/12082009-80/0/
It is the 3 part agenda item.
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vm7mm
enthusiast
Posts: 1383
Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04
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12-12-09 12:08 PM - Post#101764
In response to jrob
Restaurants and alcohol bring in tax revenue for the city, Churches don't. Greed over Religion?
Edited by vm7mm on 12-12-09 12:35 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-12-09 01:00 PM - Post#101768
In response to vm7mm
Restaurants and alcohol bring in tax revenue for the city, Churches don't. Greed over Religion?
It has more to do with the church(s) controlling development than the city. Just look at downtown Allen as an example of a church controlling what is allowed and what is not allowed. Don't blame city officials when you ask why downtown Allen hasn't developed.
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 1974
Reg: 09-03-07
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12-12-09 01:06 PM - Post#101770
In response to vm7mm
Restaurants and alcohol bring in tax revenue for the city, Churches don't. Greed over Religion?
"Greed" seems a little strong.
I would say: Religion over free market?
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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vm7mm
enthusiast
Posts: 1383
Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04
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12-12-09 01:37 PM - Post#101772
In response to asmile4u
Did'nt there used to be a saloon in downtown Allen?
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SB
enthusiast
Posts: 1135
Reg: 09-07-03
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12-12-09 04:55 PM - Post#101782
In response to vm7mm
I just don't understand why churches need the protection from nearby establishments selling alcohol. Is this restriction a state law outside the control of Allen - thus leaving zoning modification the only way for Allen officials to approach this issue?
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vm7mm
enthusiast
Posts: 1383
Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04
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12-12-09 06:19 PM - Post#101786
In response to SB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_ the_U... On the chart, it says no for State Control. Wet/Dry issues determined by city/county election.
Edited by vm7mm on 12-12-09 06:26 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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tawny
enthusiast
Posts: 255
Loc: East Allen
Reg: 12-14-05
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12-12-09 09:12 PM - Post#101794
In response to vm7mm
It's even worse in OK. Where I grew up, a liquor store that was across from my apartment had to close for a day because a school a 1/2 a mile away was holding a board election! Talk about asinine! There are some really stupid laws out there. I guess in this case they are afraid that someone will get drunk and vote the wrong way :)
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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12-13-09 01:23 AM - Post#101801
In response to tawny
I never could figure out why religion and alcohol don't mix in this country.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-13-09 07:57 AM - Post#101803
In response to Joe Schirmer
I never could figure out why religion and alcohol don't mix in this country.
They do, but they don't want anyone to know it. I was raised Baptist in one of the largest churchs in our area. I'll never forget going to a youth swim party at a senior deacon's house and opened up a cabinet looking for a glass and saw a wet bar stocked that would make any night club proud. Again, I don't think alcohol is the issue. The issue is the church wants to control all development. If they can put a plant church on every corner, it would effectively control what could go on that corner. The church doesn't want their right to expand limited, they just want to control everyone else's right to do so.
Hiram Sasser from the article, says in every case a compromise was reached. That's a good sign. On the other hand he also says that no other city has had as many issues with church and city mixing as Allen. Again, that's just plain not the truth. Watch the news any night or read the paper. It happens in every community.
Councilman Herald is quoted as saying he doesn't believe a compromise can be reached and is against "limiting anyone's individual rights". First off Mr. Herald, no where does the proposed changes say anything about "limiting individual's rights", so please do a better job of preparing for the council agenda. The citizens of Allen deserves better. Mr. Hiram Sasser, a legal litigator who's profession is representing churchs, thinks a compromise can be reached. Mr. Herald thinks about what he can say to the paper.
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SB
enthusiast
Posts: 1135
Reg: 09-07-03
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12-13-09 08:34 AM - Post#101804
In response to vm7mm
Thanks.
I looked this up and the minimum distance between church or hospital and restaurants serving alcoholic beverages is specified in Allen's Land Development Code, Article VI, Section 6.03.5 It comes from the state TABC is is optional to adopt.
The proposal was to modify the zoned areas where churches could locate to disallow shopping centers. Location there, with the distance requirement, prevents opportunity for restaurants to locate in these centers.
I don't understand why the churches would feel the need for this protection let alone have an bias against drink. I'm not Christian but don't wish to discourage any people of faith in their religious activities. However, I'd wish that the distance rule be removed. At least one speaker at the Council meeting addressed this (Item 15, pt. 2, at about 20 minutes)
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crochet_lover
enthusiast
Posts: 139
Loc: Allen, Texas U.S.A.
Reg: 05-17-05
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12-13-09 11:59 AM - Post#101808
In response to SB
I don't see any problem with churches sharing space with mixed use areas. Bars could be open on Saturday night and the church could be open on Sunday morning. They could share the same space. "Paul's Pool Hall and Preaching". Share advertising and everything.
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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12-13-09 12:26 PM - Post#101810
In response to asmile4u
I don't think alcohol is the issue. The issue is the church wants to control all development. If they can put a plant church on every corner, it would effectively control what could go on that corner. The church doesn't want their right to expand limited, they just want to control everyone else's right to do so.
That is a very pessimistic view of religion.
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vm7mm
enthusiast
Posts: 1383
Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04
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12-13-09 01:27 PM - Post#101812
In response to crochet_lover
I don't see any problem with churches sharing space with mixed use areas. Bars could be open on Saturday night and the church could be open on Sunday morning. They could share the same space. "Paul's Pool Hall and Preaching". Share advertising and everything.
Or maybe, "Cocktails and Confession"
Edited by vm7mm on 12-13-09 02:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-13-09 08:42 PM - Post#101824
In response to Joe Schirmer
I don't think alcohol is the issue. The issue is the church wants to control all development. If they can put a plant church on every corner, it would effectively control what could go on that corner. The church doesn't want their right to expand limited, they just want to control everyone else's right to do so.
That is a very pessimistic view of religion.
Sir, I respectfully disagree. My church focuses on the homeless, the hungry and the abused, in accordance with scripture and the teachings of our Lord, reaching out to help those in need.
All one has to do is look at many churches in our area and see their focus is unfortunately not on religion, but control. If this paints a pessimistic view of certain churches, so be it. I just think there are many, many more important agendas to address other than the item in question.
If a "christian" publicly declares "the Lord rebuke you" on something, that in the big picture of life will effect no one, this alone paints a pessimistic view of religion for all to see. Is that a person, for someone looking at what religion is all about, to base an opinion? I sincerely hope not.
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vrs
enthusiast
Posts: 2631
Loc: Allen, Texas
Reg: 04-20-00
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12-13-09 08:45 PM - Post#101825
In response to jrob
This is an incredibly amazingly shockingly poor example of journalism - even by the usual standards of the DMN.
One would expect the article to contain some clear concise summary explanations of what the current ordinance states, what the proposed ordinance states, and what is contained in the applicable laws.
Oh, wait, that would take homework and responsible professional journalism. How much easier to show up, jot down a few inflammatory quotes, gloss past any real reporting, and make that press deadline.
The article does state that City staff and some of the opposition leadership are going to get together and look for some modified language that is satisfactory to all parties which indicates the process of open government is working.
Just because someone says something in an offensive manner does not mean they don't have a point.
I am not going to condemn the folks who came to the meeting for a couple of reasons:
1) we should not imitate the very behavior we deplore (which is exactly what demonizing the outspoken opposition is doing)
2) sometimes the passion and emotion that people feel on an issue overtakes their ability to be civil - I have seen it
I have faith in the council and the city management to work it out. And - as was pointed out on another thread - I am Catholic and we have been known to drink alcohol on premise during adult social functions so why would I object to a nice restaurant serving liquor next door to the church?
| Blessed be the cracked, for they let in the light. |
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vm7mm
enthusiast
Posts: 1383
Loc: Allen Tx usa
Reg: 08-12-04
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12-13-09 10:17 PM - Post#101832
In response to vrs
Catholics would'nt object, I believe it was the Baptists objecting. I think that this zoning issue is a bunch of nonsense myself.
Edited by vm7mm on 12-13-09 10:27 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 1974
Reg: 09-03-07
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12-13-09 10:21 PM - Post#101833
In response to asmile4u
I never could figure out why religion and alcohol don't mix in this country.
They do, but they don't want anyone to know it. I was raised Baptist in one of the largest churchs in our area. I'll never forget going to a youth swim party at a senior deacon's house and opened up a cabinet looking for a glass and saw a wet bar stocked that would make any night club proud. Again, I don't think alcohol is the issue. The issue is the church wants to control all development. If they can put a plant church on every corner, it would effectively control what could go on that corner. The church doesn't want their right to expand limited, they just want to control everyone else's right to do so.
All one has to do is look at many churches in our area and see their focus is unfortunately not on religion, but control. If this paints a pessimistic view of certain churches, so be it. I just think there are many, many more important agendas to address other than the item in question.
If a "christian" publicly declares "the Lord rebuke you" on something, that in the big picture of life will effect no one, this alone paints a pessimistic view of religion for all to see. Is that a person, for someone looking at what religion is all about, to base an opinion? I sincerely hope not.
I think you're right on here.
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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Aolain
enthusiast
Posts: 1194
Reg: 11-13-06
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12-13-09 10:37 PM - Post#101837
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
Interesting stuff.
Looks like the fundamentalist are making their move.
Anyone ever heard of the wedding at Cana? And no, the use of wine in the ancient world was "wine" not grape juice......that is a fundamentalist distortion of the ancient world
Edited by Aolain on 12-14-09 06:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Maurice
Community Expert
Posts: 3981
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 12-03-01
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12-13-09 10:57 PM - Post#101838
In response to Aolain
How many churches do they want in the area? Aren't there enough already to support those who wish to attend?
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rw
member
Posts: 427
Reg: 10-11-01
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12-14-09 06:33 AM - Post#101844
In response to vrs
Since reading all of these posts, I went back and watched the meeting online...I think overall the discussion was civil...there was the one guy that rebuked the council, which was in poor taste...they had not voted yet... A couple more hinted that council would regret making the change...hinting at ballot box retribution...but I have seen things get much more intense in past council and P&Z meetings.
The bottom line is that the folks in the community that disagreed came out and expressed their grievances...and the council listened and agreed to table the vote and meet with the Ministerial Alliance and try to work out a compromise.
That is how it is supposed to work.
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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12-14-09 12:32 PM - Post#101860
In response to asmile4u
I don't think alcohol is the issue. The issue is the church wants to control all development. If they can put a plant church on every corner, it would effectively control what could go on that corner. The church doesn't want their right to expand limited, they just want to control everyone else's right to do so.
That is a very pessimistic view of religion.
Sir, I respectfully disagree. My church focuses on the homeless, the hungry and the abused, in accordance with scripture and the teachings of our Lord, reaching out to help those in need.
All one has to do is look at many churches in our area and see their focus is unfortunately not on religion, but control. If this paints a pessimistic view of certain churches, so be it. I just think there are many, many more important agendas to address other than the item in question.
If a "christian" publicly declares "the Lord rebuke you" on something, that in the big picture of life will effect no one, this alone paints a pessimistic view of religion for all to see. Is that a person, for someone looking at what religion is all about, to base an opinion? I sincerely hope not.
My apologies. When you said "the church" I assumed that you were making a blanket statement about religion rather than a particular church. I am glad that you seemed to have found a church that doesn't want to control all development in the city.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-14-09 11:25 PM - Post#101878
In response to Joe Schirmer
Sarcasm really isn't one of your best traits. Nice try though. 
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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12-14-09 11:33 PM - Post#101880
In response to asmile4u
No sarcasm was intended.
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asmile4u
enthusiast
Posts: 774
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-20-08
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12-15-09 09:23 AM - Post#101885
In response to Joe Schirmer
No sarcasm was intended.
Then you have my apologies sir.
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Sgordon
enthusiast
Posts: 269
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 08-02-07
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12-16-09 01:02 PM - Post#101969
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
Well, just look at FBC Allen - right there in downtown. They are purchasing yet another building to expand. As for wanting to be in control - you bet. Just look at their staff! They love being in a position of authority and control (it's amazing when you see how they are when people are around vs when there's not).
It's also amazing how they can afford to purchase new buildings but can't afford to pay for childcare workers during the 2nd worship service. They mandate that "both parents must volunteer or their children are not welcome here."
Does this sound like a "Christian" church?
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chasw
member
Posts: 84
Loc: Allen
Reg: 03-16-09
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12-16-09 06:18 PM - Post#101980
In response to crochet_lover
I don't see any problem with churches sharing space with mixed use areas. Bars could be open on Saturday night and the church could be open on Sunday morning. They could share the same space. "Paul's Pool Hall and Preaching". Share advertising and everything.
"There's a fine line between Saturday night and Sunday morning" Jimmy Buffett
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DrivinTooFast
enthusiast
Posts: 1349
Reg: 02-20-08
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12-17-09 10:32 AM - Post#101992
In response to chasw
I also heard that Baptists have outlawed any Happy Dance emoticons.
 
Bunch of killjoys if you ask me - Heck Jesus himself made water into wine - Now that guy knows how to throw a lake party. Water into Wine, Walking on the surf and bread into fish.
Edited by DrivinTooFast on 12-17-09 10:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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rtinallentx
enthusiast
Posts: 371
Loc: Allen, TX, USA
Reg: 04-08-03
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12-17-09 08:46 PM - Post#102028
In response to DrivinTooFast
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