Brewer
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Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-21-11 09:52 AM - Post#126444
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7...
I sure hope it passes and then we can lobby for carry on EVERY campus.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Edited by Brewer on 02-21-11 09:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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carygold
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Posts: 4959
Reg: 05-30-08
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02-21-11 10:10 AM - Post#126447
In response to Brewer
Can I ask why? Why do you want guns on a college campus?
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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civicminded
Community Guide
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Loc: Lone Star State
Reg: 04-24-02
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02-21-11 01:55 PM - Post#126455
In response to carygold
I think brewer means that in such a result, those wanting to protect themselves can. Not likely there would be many gun toters on campus other than those of us going our entire life, haha.
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Brewer
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Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-21-11 02:29 PM - Post#126459
In response to carygold
So if some knife,baseball bat,machete, or gun wielding wackadoo is slicing and dicing a bunch of folks in a science building someone that has passed an FBI background check and shown at least SOME competence on the pistol range has a chance of living through the carnage and making it home for Christmas.
This does not mean every freshman will be issued a 1911 when they pick up the housing packet. It does not mean that you could carry there w/o a CHL legally but, the bad guys walk past the "No Guns Allowed" signs with amazing regularity. It seems they are already there to commit the crime of murder so whats another charge of unlawful carrying of a handgun.
It does mean that there will at least be a chance that the sad, misunderstood jerk that got dumped by his girlfriend and is now planning on giving her a few extra breathing holes when she steps out of her 1230 class will be stopped if a school mate that is over the age of 21 and has never had much more than a parking ticket and has the wherewithal to take the protection of herself and others into account happens to be there.
Have you heard about the terrible up tick in gun violence on the Colorado college campuses that allow campus carry? How about in Utah? That's right boss cause ain't none been happening.
Most college folks won't be ALLOWED to carry based on current law. I went to school when I finished active duty at the age of 24 and I can't say for sure if I would have carried then or not had it been legal.
Will it stop every episode? Impossible to even speculate but if you look at who gets a CHL and then at who carries after they get it you will see an older, fairly mature demographic that is not prone to go nuts over another kid stepping on his shoes in the Student Union or killing a Prof over a bad grade. CHL holders do tend to the mindset of protecting good people from bad. It tends to be how they wired.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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carygold
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Posts: 4959
Reg: 05-30-08
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02-21-11 03:07 PM - Post#126465
In response to Brewer
For you to say:
CHL holders do tend to the mindset of protecting good people from bad. It tends to be how they wired.
That is like saying people that like music tend to make better guitar players.
Why would a bad person get a CHL?
This law is an escalation.
Now, in the mind of the angry person, a fist fight could be met with gun fire, so the idea of a fist fight is no more, knife? no more, a Machete? only if they watch a lot of movies. The only thing to bring now is a gun. The law escalates the conflict.
The mutual annihilation path to peace only works with nuclear weapons and only with sane people. Yes, most CHL owners will be cool calm and collected that is not the issue...now if you have a beef you had better be armed. And as a friend says undercover officers at campus will now have to wear a uniform.
I will wager the law will be repealed from an incident by a licensed gun owner.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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Aolain
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Posts: 1194
Reg: 11-13-06
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02-21-11 06:19 PM - Post#126473
In response to carygold
I am as big a supporter of the 2nd Amendment as one is likely to find...I think registration is unconstitutional: further, in public, I think all citizens have a right to carry...in public.
But institutions have a right to say "no, you cannot carry here."
With that said: Just what we need, drunken 18 year olds in a dorm with a .357. Yee-haw!
And, in my opinion, two days of weapons & law training do not a rootin' a-tootin' gunfighter at the OK corral make. Heck, in my day--and it is still the same--we did not let our troops have weapons in the barracks. Private weapons were locked up in the arms room, and to check them out one had to have their company commander's written permission. And these were guys under the eye of a professional chain of command and good weapons training.
I think some of these guys in Austin have Dirty Harry fantasies.
Whatever the case, I think it is nuts to allow conceled carry on a university campus unless the school administration decides that should be the policy.
Thank goodness I work at a private school; I think this new law exempts private schools.
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Brewer
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Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-21-11 07:49 PM - Post#126482
In response to Aolain
1. If you are a PUBLIC institution then Austin makes your policy. Private schools would not have to allow CC because they are PRIVATE.
2.Remember, There is no LAW yet.
3. The 18 Y/O can't even get a CHL making him irrelevant to this discussion.
4. If you are a supporter of the 2ND which includes, as we all know "....To keep and bear arms...." Why do you make a distinction regarding colleges? Colleges are public places just like grocery stores and hospitals.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Allenite
enthusiast
Posts: 303
Loc: Allen, TX, USA
Reg: 06-18-01
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02-21-11 08:18 PM - Post#126483
In response to Brewer
I'm thinking that it's not very easy to get a CHL. So, those that go through the ropes to get one, have proven to be stable and sensible. I've considered getting a CHL, but just haven't made the time to go through the process. IF I did have a CHL, I would carry everywhere...
I would rather have my protection with me, than to need the protection and NOT have it.
Before Texas had a CHL law, a former District Attorney told me that he always carries a handgun...even though he did not have a permit to do so. He said he would rather be alive and under indictment for using a gun without a license, than to be dead. I suspect that if the circumstances were reasonable, most juries would acquit a defendant who was defending themselves...no matter where the action took place.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree with a law that says "in THIS place, you don't have a right to defend yourself".
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Aolain
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Posts: 1194
Reg: 11-13-06
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02-21-11 08:34 PM - Post#126486
In response to Allenite
How hard can it be to get a CHL?
1) Have a clean criminal record.
2) Fill out some paper work.
3) Have a wee bit of cash.
4) Go to a short orientation class.
Sounds pretty easy to me. And the little class does not sound like Range School or Jump School to me--take that, Maurice!. LOL
And I am a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment. I also believe that a private institution/business can set its own policies--in the same way a homeowner can say "no guns here."
If a business wants no one to carry, it is not up to the great state of Texas to tell them to change thier policies. If a business wants everyone to carry...more power to them.
In the same way, if a private university says "no!" thank goodness that it seems that they cannot be forced to allow pistol packing students into their class rooms--or in the dorms.
To put this in perspective, it is estimated that 50% of undergraduates today...yes, 50%...have some sort of undiagnosed, temporary emotional disorder. Depression is a big problem nowadays with undergrads...a result, in my opinion, of all the hand holding that goes on in public schools.
Does a private university, or any university, really want drunken, depressed, immature undergraduates packing heat in a dorm?
This arguement is kind of a Lockean arguement about the bubble of rights....where do your rights end and where do my rights begin?
Edited by Aolain on 02-21-11 08:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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carygold
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Posts: 4959
Reg: 05-30-08
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02-21-11 08:49 PM - Post#126487
In response to Brewer
1. If you are a PUBLIC institution then Austin makes your policy. Private schools would not have to allow CC because they are PRIVATE.
2.Remember, There is no LAW yet.
3. The 18 Y/O can't even get a CHL making him irrelevant to this discussion.
4. If you are a supporter of the 2ND which includes, as we all know "....To keep and bear arms...." Why do you make a distinction regarding colleges? Colleges are public places just like grocery stores and hospitals.
Colleges are not public places just like grocery stores and hospitals.
A college is a community. A community of teenagers and young adults under 24 for the most part. I would think walking around campus with a firearm is okay as long as you're licensed..for the most part.
But at the end of the day, when the alcohol is flowing, maybe some all night study drugs are out and the guns are now in dorm rooms. When the fights break out, and young couples break up, and while the guns should be safely tucked away, they are now more accessible, because they are allowed.
People in a close college community get on each others nerves, they get upset for small reasons, the stress levels get high in college and they are very young.
How many people do you know when you're in a grocery store or hospital? How many do you interact with on a daily basis? There is no comparison to life on a college campus and a grocery store.
Is there?
By the way my Grandfather carried a loaded gun in the glove box with a bottle of whiskey under the seat of his car his whole life. And while he is not with us any longer I would bet he would say... "why do they want guns in college, that doesn't make sense?"
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-21-11 08:55 PM - Post#126489
In response to Aolain
ANY private property/business owner can already post the 30.06 signage and prohibit the lawful carry of handguns onto the property.
Any business that has alcohol sales as more than 51% of its business is already off limits.
I don't think you know the existing law well enough to argue the merits of the proposed law.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Aolain
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Posts: 1194
Reg: 11-13-06
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02-21-11 09:32 PM - Post#126490
In response to Brewer
Brewer:
Am I wrong that the proposed law forces public universities to allow students who hold a CHL to carry them to class? To have them in their dorm rooms?
I disagree completely with this law, and thank God I teach at a private university and will not, as I understand, be forced to allow drunken, immature, volitile, depressed, pistol-packing kids on my campus...at least legally speaking.
We disagree here. You want students to have access to dangerous weapons in class, on campus, and in their dorms. I think this is nuts. Do we really want some gang-banger who has avoided arrest to have a glock in his dorm room?
Do we really want some jock named "Biff" who has an IQ of 95, is from some pamperd suburb, is fired up on booze, coke, steroids, and desire to look cool to his buddies to have a Cold Combat Commander under the mattress under his bed in a public university dorm?
And as I noted, just about anyone with a clean record and the IQ of a turnip can get a CHL. It is not, despite current rhetoric, some sort of Rambo traning course....an orientation.
Edited by Aolain on 02-21-11 09:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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pup
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Posts: 3755
Reg: 03-29-06
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02-22-11 08:18 AM - Post#126498
In response to Aolain
Brewer:
Am I wrong that the proposed law forces public universities to allow students who hold a CHL to carry them to class? To have them in their dorm rooms?
I disagree completely with this law, and thank God I teach at a private university and will not, as I understand, be forced to allow drunken, immature, volitile, depressed, pistol-packing kids on my campus...at least legally speaking.
We disagree here. You want students to have access to dangerous weapons in class, on campus, and in their dorms. I think this is nuts. Do we really want some gang-banger who has avoided arrest to have a glock in his dorm room?
Do we really want some jock named "Biff" who has an IQ of 95, is from some pamperd suburb, is fired up on booze, coke, steroids, and desire to look cool to his buddies to have a Cold Combat Commander under the mattress under his bed in a public university dorm?
And as I noted, just about anyone with a clean record and the IQ of a turnip can get a CHL. It is not, despite current rhetoric, some sort of Rambo traning course....an orientation.
How is any of that any different from every day life everywhere else?
It's ok for Lunkhead Biff to pack down at the mall where they just screwed up his slice of pizza but not in college where El Nutso Grande just whipped out his glock and is mowing down the unprepared?
| Pup has left the building. |
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Al C
enthusiast
Posts: 5538
Loc: McKinney/Allen, TX
Reg: 02-16-01
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02-22-11 09:40 AM - Post#126502
In response to Aolain
How hard can it be to get a CHL?
1) Have a clean criminal record.
2) Fill out some paper work.
3) Have a wee bit of cash.
4) Go to a short orientation class.
Uh ... no. Take a look at some of these sources:
http://chl-texas.com/
http://www.texaschlacademy.com/id82.html
http://dashxdr.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-experience -...
From that last link ....
Finally you take these completed forms back, pay a fee, and some months later you get a permit to buy one (1) handgun. To get another, or a third, or more handguns, you must repeat the permit process.
When I discovered the sordid details of what was involved, I was filled with a sense of despair. What's happened to the 2nd amendment to the Constitution? I have a right to bear arms, dammit! The burden of complying with the onerous permit process is...simply too great.
Short orientation class? Hardly.
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Maurice
Community Expert
Posts: 3981
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 12-03-01
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02-22-11 10:13 AM - Post#126504
In response to Al C
I support this 100% because I am of the mind that there should be almost no place a CHL holder cannot carry a firearm. There are enough of those places already and some I agree with to an extent but others I think are silly but it's the law. I do not like being forced to be disarmed when I go to certain locations, so I generally avoid them as much as I can. That's just me though. :)
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-22-11 11:04 AM - Post#126506
In response to Maurice
This is not correct for Texas. You can buy just about as many guns as you can afford with no waiting unless you are "delayed" by the National Instant Check System" NICS.
Quote:Finally you take these completed forms back, pay a fee, and some months later you get a permit to buy one (1) handgun. To get another, or a third, or more handguns, you must repeat the permit process.
When I discovered the sordid details of what was involved, I was filled with a sense of despair. What's happened to the 2nd amendment to the Constitution? I have a right to bear arms, dammit! The burden of complying with the onerous permit process is...simply too great.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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Al C
enthusiast
Posts: 5538
Loc: McKinney/Allen, TX
Reg: 02-16-01
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02-22-11 11:20 AM - Post#126508
In response to Brewer
True, but the entire write up is interesting. And my point remains ... the Texas CHL course is no short orientation class, from what I understand.
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Aolain
enthusiast
Posts: 1194
Reg: 11-13-06
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02-22-11 09:47 PM - Post#126555
In response to Al C
Al:
I looked at the links, and to be honest, it is not all that hard to get a CHL......
And the 10 hours of instruction???? Ack! The Horror!!
Mabey it is just me, but for the life of me, I do not see what the big deal it is to get a CHL...some minor orientation to the weapon and the law, some paperwork, and a background check followed by a simple multiple-choice/TF test.
As one of the links you provided said:
"At the end there is a test of 20 questions, 16 true/false questions and 4 multiple (ABCD) choice questions. At the end if you shot well enough (the standards are very attainable) and if you didn't get too many wrong (I don't think anyone got too many wrong out of our class), you are presented with a signed certificate stating that you successfully completed a licensed course on the safe and legal way to keep a concealed handgun."
Big whoop! I know there is this kind of civic myth that CHL holders are some sort of elite BATF clones. But let us face facts...a short orientation on the weekend.....? (perhaps part of the disconnect here is the definition of "orientation." I would see a weekend class as little more than familiarity training, and not intensive training at all; back in the day I ran a .45 range at West Point for cadets and we considered what we did, a full 16 hours of training simply orienting a cadet to the weapon).
Perhaps my viewing these requirements as kind of minor is based upon my own experience...but I just dont see how 1) it is that hard to get a CHL, and 2) how CHL holder are some sort of elite paramilitaries--exagerati ng here I know.
Sorry, it aint Ranger School or Jump School.
Proficiency with a weapon takes intensive training...not 8 hours..and this training must be ongoing as these skills degrade quickly over time...Maurice, I know you agree with this! 8)
For me, free citizens should be able to carry weapons openly;and to heck with CHL, gun registration, etc. etc....in the same vein, institutions have a right to restrict weapons on their property.
Edited by Aolain on 02-22-11 10:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Al C
enthusiast
Posts: 5538
Loc: McKinney/Allen, TX
Reg: 02-16-01
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02-22-11 10:07 PM - Post#126559
In response to Aolain
Never said it was comparable to Ranger school. But I do know people who have completed the training and their entire outlook on carrying a weapon is completely different than before training.
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Brewer
enthusiast
Posts: 1287
Reg: 06-02-07
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02-22-11 11:13 PM - Post#126563
In response to Aolain
All this talk about Ranger school. What was your class#?
The class was a cake-walk for me but I have been shooting for 30 years and I had been reading the Texas CHL law for the last eight years. I also have a Florida Non-Resident permit that I have had for eight years. The Fla permit was even easier to get. I sent in a DD-214,an FBI print card,some pictures and some money. There was ZERO requirement for any range time.
The exam was EASY if you know the law or you listened in class.
The shooting took many by surprise there were several that did not come close to passing the range portion.
No one here has talked about being a BATFE,ICE,TX-DPS,FBI, or any other local or federal agency wannabe. You come up with all of that when you
don't want to put together a reasoned argument.
Aolian's quote of the day...
"" For me, free citizens should be able to carry weapons openly;and to heck with CHL, gun registration, etc. etc....in the same vein, institutions have a right to restrict weapons on their property"" THEY ALREADY DO. Read and understand the law and then get back with me.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-GEN George S. Patton
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