Joe Schirmer
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Loc: SE Allen
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09-29-11 02:57 PM - Post#139827
..that make it difficult to claim that Islam is a religion peace.
Iranian Pastor Sentenced to Death: Nadarkhani Refuses to Convert
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civicminded
Community Guide
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Loc: Lone Star State
Reg: 04-24-02
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09-29-11 03:21 PM - Post#139830
In response to Joe Schirmer
They only claim that when they don't want any interference. Their agenda is not unlike that of a well known WWII dictator....that would tell other nations he had no plans to invade them, just before he did so.
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carygold
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Posts: 4934
Reg: 05-30-08
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09-30-11 08:33 AM - Post#139869
In response to civicminded
There is a fundamentalist religious group that controls Iran and also controls Ahmadinejad and they are trying very hard to keep their control. I think this is one more way to prove they are in charge.
In the end these actions have more to do with politics and control than religion. Look at the two Americans that were released as Ahmadinejad makes his UN speech to call America brutal and inhumane. Its politics with peoples lives.
I think we need to keep things in perspective or we are in danger of revisiting the days of McCarthyism where fear and paranoia warp our ability to make rational decisions.
Our country is in no danger of being taken over by Sharia law, yet paranoid people that think they know what Sharia law represents are trying to outlaw something that by their own belief is unconstitutional.
There are 1.5 Billion Muslims. If 1 million were fundamentalist enough to kill people for leaving Islam that's still .00066667 of all Muslims.
Nearly all of the Muslims I have met here and abroad do not strictly follow the laws of Islam, such as prayer 5 times a day. Of course this is a very small subset of them all, but my point is we cannot let those that make the news due to their bazaar practices or beliefs represent the whole group.
Remember the Arab Spring is not about religious freedom its about individual freedom.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 09-30-11 08:36 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Maurice
Community Expert
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Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 12-03-01
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09-30-11 02:00 PM - Post#139902
In response to carygold
Here's the problem with that claim that a small fundie group controls Iran. Where are all the Muslim groups around the world coming out to condemn this? Where is CAIR or any other Muslim advocacy group, regardless of what their name stands for, when they should be out there speaking out against something like this? Doing so would gain them a lot more respect than they'll ever get trying to scream at the top of their lungs that they're the religion of peace. Actions speak louder than words and the overwhelming majority of actions from the Muslim world are violent.
If they don't like that people look at them as they do, it's up to THEM to change the perception through actions.
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Joe Schirmer
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Loc: SE Allen
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09-30-11 02:11 PM - Post#139903
In response to carygold
Wow. Just wow.
There is a fundamentalist religious group that controls Iran and also controls Ahmadinejad and they are trying very hard to keep their control. I think this is one more way to prove they are in charge.
It makes it so simple for you to just dismiss this by calling it a "fundamental religious group". What does that mean even? Do you even know?
In the end these actions have more to do with politics and control than religion. Look at the two Americans that were released as Ahmadinejad makes his UN speech to call America brutal and inhumane. Its politics with peoples lives.
What do these two events have in common other than occurring in Iran? How does that affect the court system in Iran? Once again, do you even know?
I think we need to keep things in perspective or we are in danger of revisiting the days of McCarthyism where fear and paranoia warp our ability to make rational decisions.
Wow! McCarthyism? Really? Where do you get that?
Our country is in no danger of being taken over by Sharia law, yet paranoid people that think they know what Sharia law represents are trying to outlaw something that by their own belief is unconstitutional.
Please tell me exactly where you got the idea that anyone was worried about this country being taken over by Sharia law in this thread. You can't because it doesn't exist. Thanks for trying to quell any fears that nobody has.
There are 1.5 Billion Muslims. If 1 million were fundamentalist enough to kill people for leaving Islam that's still .00066667 of all Muslims.
Huh? What do you even know what the heck you are talking about here? Do you even know how many places you can earn a death sentence for blasphemy or Muslim apostasy?
Nearly all of the Muslims I have met here and abroad do not strictly follow the laws of Islam, such as prayer 5 times a day. Of course this is a very small subset of them all, but my point is we cannot let those that make the news due to their bazaar practices or beliefs represent the whole group.
Here I have to agree. I have not met a Muslim in this country who would support a death sentence for Muslim apostasy. But you might be surprised how common that particular belief may be throughout the rest of the world.
Remember the Arab Spring is not about religious freedom its about individual freedom.
Who brought up the Arab Spring? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
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mgrayar
enthusiast
Posts: 3154
Reg: 09-25-09
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09-30-11 02:57 PM - Post#139907
In response to Joe Schirmer
I understand this is not indicative of the entire religion, but I do agree that the lack of public condemnation by Islamic groups in the region is quite concerning and possibly telling.
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nomoon
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Posts: 982
Loc: Allen
Reg: 05-31-06
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09-30-11 03:33 PM - Post#139908
In response to carygold
There are 1.5 Billion Muslims. If 1 million were fundamentalist enough to kill people for leaving Islam that's still .00066667 of all Muslims.
I realize that this isn't apples to apples, but Pew Research Center Pew Research has real numbers for a related question:
What percentage rejects suicide bombing and violence against civilians? Here are 2009 numbers for various countries:
Country...Never Justified
=======================
Pakistan.......87%
Turkey.........74%
Indonesia......65%
Jordan.........56%
Israel ........55%
Egypt..........52%
Lenanon ...... 44%
Nigeria ...... 33%
Palest. Terr . 17%
Note that this data is from an article announcing that support for bin Laden had been dropping. Data from easlier years are higher. Support for Bin Laden is generally in the tens of percentages
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carygold
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Posts: 4934
Reg: 05-30-08
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09-30-11 07:17 PM - Post#139921
In response to nomoon
Thank you for those numbers.
I didn't have time to look that up.
Its good to see that attitudes are changing in Muslim nations. I think many of these people are just now seeing the world through a more global view thanks in part to the internet. Its easy to keep people in the dark if their only source of news is locally controlled.
Iranian's are generally a very educated people, I hope they can find a way to get rid of their theocracy and move to a democracy. Unfortunately, it appears there will be many more people being made an example of until that happens.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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Jimi Ray Clapton
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Posts: 1970
Reg: 09-03-07
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11-23-11 09:42 AM - Post#142597
In response to nomoon
There are 1.5 Billion Muslims. If 1 million were fundamentalist enough to kill people for leaving Islam that's still .00066667 of all Muslims.
I realize that this isn't apples to apples, but Pew Research Center Pew Research has real numbers for a related question:
What percentage rejects suicide bombing and violence against civilians? Here are 2009 numbers for various countries:
Country...Never Justified
=======================
Pakistan.......87%
Turkey.........74%
Indonesia......65%
Jordan.........56%
Israel ........55%
Egypt..........52%
Lenanon ...... 44%
Nigeria ...... 33%
Palest. Terr . 17%
Note that this data is from an article announcing that support for bin Laden had been dropping. Data from easlier years are higher. Support for Bin Laden is generally in the tens of percentages
Two of the three lowest percentages are targeted neighbors of Israel. Interesting.
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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Al C
enthusiast
Posts: 5538
Loc: McKinney/Allen, TX
Reg: 02-16-01
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11-23-11 10:45 AM - Post#142600
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
There are 1.5 Billion Muslims. If 1 million were fundamentalist enough to kill people for leaving Islam that's still .00066667 of all Muslims.
I realize that this isn't apples to apples, but Pew Research Center Pew Research has real numbers for a related question:
What percentage rejects suicide bombing and violence against civilians? Here are 2009 numbers for various countries:
Country...Never Justified
=======================
Pakistan.......87%
Turkey.........74%
Indonesia......65%
Jordan.........56%
Israel ........55%
Egypt..........52%
Lenanon ...... 44%
Nigeria ...... 33%
Palest. Terr . 17%
Note that this data is from an article announcing that support for bin Laden had been dropping. Data from easlier years are higher. Support for Bin Laden is generally in the tens of percentages
Two of the three lowest percentages are targeted neighbors of Israel. Interesting.
You could just as easily say "two of the three lowest percentages are in range to target Isreal."
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 1970
Reg: 09-03-07
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11-23-11 10:57 AM - Post#142601
In response to Al C
Yes, yes. Of course. But that's not near as interesting to me in light of my opinion that a large section of the U.S. public, particularly those that consider themselves "consevative", have a skewed, unrealistic, and inaccurate view of this struggle.
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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Joe Schirmer
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Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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11-23-11 01:44 PM - Post#142604
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
Yes, yes. Of course. But that's not near as interesting to me in light of my opinion that a large section of the U.S. public, particularly those that consider themselves "consevative", have a skewed, unrealistic, and inaccurate view of this struggle.
Can you say Confirmation Bias?
I thought you could...
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nomoon
enthusiast
Posts: 982
Loc: Allen
Reg: 05-31-06
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11-23-11 05:57 PM - Post#142607
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
... a large section of the U.S. public, particularly those that consider themselves "consevative", have a skewed, unrealistic, and inaccurate view of this struggle.
Which may be more accurately stated as: conservatives tend to have an opinion on this topic that it different from yours.  It's pretty easy to find information to support (or confirm) your own viewpoint of this particular subject. There is no shortage of propaganda. I do find it interesting that there is a definite liberal/conservative division on this topic.
In my own understanding of this conflict, the two sides were more equally responsible for violence and bad behavior during the earlier years. However, I'd say that there has been a definite trend towards more bad behavior on the part of the Palestinians during the last 20 years or so. Roughing up of a civilian is inexcusable, but I don't see a moral equivalence between that and the targeting of civilians by rockets and suicide bombers, and the use of civilians as human shields.
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 1970
Reg: 09-03-07
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11-24-11 10:10 AM - Post#142622
In response to Joe Schirmer
Yes, yes. Of course. But that's not near as interesting to me in light of my opinion that a large section of the U.S. public, particularly those that consider themselves "consevative", have a skewed, unrealistic, and inaccurate view of this struggle.
Can you say Confirmation Bias?
I thought you could...
Can you say ignorant denial? I thought you could.
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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Jimi Ray Clapton
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Posts: 1970
Reg: 09-03-07
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11-24-11 10:45 AM - Post#142624
In response to nomoon
It's pretty easy to find information to support (or confirm) your own viewpoint of this particular subject. There is no shortage of propaganda.
Likewise, there is no shortage of historical facts.
I do find it interesting that there is a definite liberal/conservative division on this topic.
You find that interesting? I find it both predictable and sickening. It seems to me, there is a definite liberal/conservative division on just about every major topic of the day. That *should* tell us something.
In my own understanding of this conflict, the two sides were more equally responsible for violence and bad behavior during the earlier years. However, I'd say that there has been a definite trend towards more bad behavior on the part of the Palestinians during the last 20 years or so. Roughing up of a civilian is inexcusable, but I don't see a moral equivalence between that and the targeting of civilians by rockets and suicide bombers, and the use of civilians as human shields.
And I would say that the belligerence on Israel's part in more recent years has only increased - particularly in light of 1) the continued and continuing (as we celebrate Thanksgiving) Israeli developement on disputed land, and 2) the MASSIVE over-reaction that became the War of 2006... where Israel (with full U.S. backing) answered the attack on a military humvie or two with the killing of roughly a thousand or more palestinian civilians and displacement of a MILLION more.
But you didn't mention any of that. Go figure.
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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nomoon
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Loc: Allen
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11-24-11 12:55 PM - Post#142630
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
But you didn't mention any of that. Go figure.
I didn't think that anything that I wrote warranted this level of snottiness. Your condescension suggests that a productive discussion of this topic isn't likely.
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 1970
Reg: 09-03-07
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11-24-11 02:14 PM - Post#142633
In response to nomoon
Jason, respectfully, no snottiness or condescension meant. Your failure to acknowledge/mention those aspects are predictable, though - that's all.
Happy Thanksgiving!
| I reserve the right to change who I am, my opinions, my views and my actions based on new and more accurate information that I receive. |
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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11-25-11 07:50 PM - Post#142681
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
Yes, yes. Of course. But that's not near as interesting to me in light of my opinion that a large section of the U.S. public, particularly those that consider themselves "consevative", have a skewed, unrealistic, and inaccurate view of this struggle.
Can you say Confirmation Bias?
I thought you could...
Can you say ignorant denial? I thought you could.
Can you be more specific? Exactly who do you think is in "ignorant denial"?
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carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4934
Reg: 05-30-08
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11-26-11 11:48 AM - Post#142690
In response to nomoon
I think its easy to choose sides when one side has control of the media. People are starving in Palestine. They cannot work and every year the Israeli's build more townships within the territory set aside by the UN for the Palestinians. Even ships with food are being blocked by Israel. But we will not hear about the hardships only the violence.
I think we forget the fact that we sit here in our cozy little suburbs and our own government has chosen a winner in this conflict and lets us know daily. But we will not hear the opinions or hardships from the other side unless its things like death threats or if a freelance journalist bring us footage from inside the walled off areas.
I think this was a big mistake that started in 1948.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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lostyankee
enthusiast
Posts: 1262
Reg: 10-27-05
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11-26-11 01:52 PM - Post#142693
In response to carygold
Wow... the creation of Israel was a mistake? Are you going to deny the Holocaust next?
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