SB
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11-27-11 02:32 PM - Post#142714
In response to mgrayar
I understand this is not indicative of the entire religion, but I do agree that the lack of public condemnation by Islamic groups in the region is quite concerning and possibly telling.
Are they not speaking out or are you just not tuned into where they are speaking out?
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mgrayar
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Posts: 3164
Reg: 09-25-09
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11-28-11 08:19 AM - Post#142736
In response to SB
I understand this is not indicative of the entire religion, but I do agree that the lack of public condemnation by Islamic groups in the region is quite concerning and possibly telling.
Are they not speaking out or are you just not tuned into where they are speaking out?
Are you asking or telling? If your telling, please elaborate since you seem to suggest you know more. If you are asking, I think my post speaks for itself.
Ps. My post was from 9/30, not sure you realized that.
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Edited by mgrayar on 11-28-11 08:22 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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carygold
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11-28-11 09:46 AM - Post#142739
In response to lostyankee
Wow... the creation of Israel was a mistake? Are you going to deny the Holocaust next?
I knew that comment was coming.
Anyone that questions the US policy on Israel is on some level accused to be anti-Jewish. I am not anti-Jewish.
In 1948 people were thrown out of their homes, Palestinian leaders and British Leaders were killed with car bombs, all to establish the state of Israel which had not existed for over 1000 years.
The question is why throw people out of their homes in Palestine for what the Germans did in Europe? Some of these Arab families lived on the same land for hundreds of years and were forcibly removed.
The Jewish people did not move to Palestine and assimilate into the population of the country and vote in their own representation. There was nothing democratic about it. Palestinians were moved to reservations much like Native Americans. Except the Palestinian's have a well established religion behind them.
I have nothing against the Jewish people, but the policy, the way modern Israel was established, leaves the door open for war. There is no resolution to this issue, except a never ending war.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 11-28-11 10:01 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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SB
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Posts: 1140
Reg: 09-07-03
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11-28-11 10:36 AM - Post#142741
In response to mgrayar
I understand this is not indicative of the entire religion, but I do agree that the lack of public condemnation by Islamic groups in the region is quite concerning and possibly telling.
Are they not speaking out or are you just not tuned into where they are speaking out?
Are you asking or telling? If your telling, please elaborate since you seem to suggest you know more. If you are asking, I think my post speaks for itself.
Ps. My post was from 9/30, not sure you realized that.
The rhetorical question makes an obvious point. What we see and hear via American media is unrepresentative of the full range of Muslum expression. There is condemnation by the Muslum community and leadership of terrorist events. Mainstream media is just not bringing it to your attention.
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Maringa
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Posts: 331
Reg: 11-06-08
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11-28-11 11:52 AM - Post#142743
In response to SB
It is apparent the Israel is pretty much entrenched in it's current position...It's probably impossible that the situation can ever reverse itself without there being a smoking hole in the ground where Jerusalem, Tel Aviv & Haifa currently exists and the general area being uninhabitable for years to come.
They are there to stay whether the world likes it or not...
The question then becomes what is the long term agreeable solution between the war parties?
I don't think this board is qualified to solve the problem - unless any of us are from that area and have lived there, we will never understand and properly filter out the propaganda from both sides enough to come up with a reasonable solution...
I went and visited both sides back in the early 90's, and things are currently a lot worse since when I visited.
At the time, many of the Arabs living in Israel (not Palestinians), would quietly say that they preferred the Jewish occupation. The Christian Palestinians (mainly around Bethlehem) also quietly preferred the controversial status quo...but since then, many things have worsened, and they are more openly against the ongoing Israel policy - especially with the continuing and unabated settlements in the West Bank...Of course, the majority of the non-Christian Palestinians simply want the Jews out of Israel...
Cutting out all of the propaganda from both sides - is there a realistic chance that peace could exist in the area if Israel finally chooses to pull out of the West Bank and hands over the Golan Heights and some of the farms in SE Lebanon back to their respective areas? Or is there just simply too much pain and grudge?
If Israel agreed to the right of return of the Palestinians, and allow them to become the majority/ruling body, would there finally be peace?
I don't know the answer...but there is just so much more involved in this than I could ever hope to grasp (even 1%).
I have to say, on a personal level, it was the most interesting trip ever ... to visit that part of the world. If any of you ever have a chance while you can...go and visit...it is beautiful...and neat folks (from both sides of the spectrum).
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mgrayar
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Posts: 3164
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11-28-11 05:23 PM - Post#142759
In response to SB
I understand this is not indicative of the entire religion, but I do agree that the lack of public condemnation by Islamic groups in the region is quite concerning and possibly telling.
Are they not speaking out or are you just not tuned into where they are speaking out?
Are you asking or telling? If your telling, please elaborate since you seem to suggest you know more. If you are asking, I think my post speaks for itself.
Ps. My post was from 9/30, not sure you realized that.
The rhetorical question makes an obvious point. What we see and hear via American media is unrepresentative of the full range of Muslum expression. There is condemnation by the Muslum community and leadership of terrorist events. Mainstream media is just not bringing it to your attention.
Feel free to back up your statements with some links dated before 9/30. I tend to look around fairly regularly. Im not sure the facts are on your side on this one.
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lostyankee
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Reg: 10-27-05
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11-28-11 10:47 PM - Post#142767
In response to carygold
And the Jews have no religion behind them? Are you forgetting Jerusalem and the temple? How many Jews were killed over the years? Do you think that there would ever be Jewish homeland without 1948?
I don't deny the violence, but it is certainly not one sided.
Edited by lostyankee on 11-28-11 10:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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r75002
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Posts: 421
Reg: 06-03-06
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11-29-11 02:05 AM - Post#142771
In response to Maringa
The Golan Heights and Jerusalem are the two points that the Isrealis are never going to negotiate on. The Golan is too important militarily, and Jerusalem is too important politically and religiously. If the Palestinians and Arabs would agree to this, I think the Isrealis would negotiate favorably on everything else. A peace treaty could probably be finalized within a month.
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Maringa
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Posts: 331
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11-29-11 08:44 AM - Post#142773
In response to r75002
The Golan Heights and Jerusalem are the two points that the Isrealis are never going to negotiate on. The Golan is too important militarily, and Jerusalem is too important politically and religiously. If the Palestinians and Arabs would agree to this, I think the Isrealis would negotiate favorably on everything else. A peace treaty could probably be finalized within a month.
I would agree with you with these points as recently as 5 years ago. But now, the Golan heights are not as critical as it used to be from a military strategy. Syria, Lebanon and Iran all have missile/artillery capability beyond the Golan radius. With Israels airforce and satellite capability, they would be able to react prior to any major engagement. If Golan was a critical piece to sustainable peace agreement, I could see Israel making concessions.
As to Jerusalem - you are correct...They will never give up Jerusalem. I think the closest thing that could ever possibly work is that Jerusalem becomes a "global" entity - not part of any country...a separate principality not ruled by Israel or any Arab country...Not sure how to explain that correctly...Needless to say, I though I heard about something like that...Chances are probably nill on that idea as well.
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carygold
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11-29-11 09:04 AM - Post#142774
In response to lostyankee
And the Jews have no religion behind them? Are you forgetting Jerusalem and the temple? How many Jews were killed over the years? Do you think that there would ever be Jewish homeland without 1948?
I don't deny the violence, but it is certainly not one sided.
Your right its not one sided. The fact that the Jewish people once occupied the land is no reason to throw people out 1000 years after the fact. But here we are anyway. My point is how do you make peace after throwing people out of their homes.
Yes the Jews have a religion behind them, but that is not enough to hold that area, but having US protection is key, thus the US has roughly 1.5 billion Muslims seeing us take sides. Do you see a formula for peace in all of this?
If I had any real say-so here I would dissolve Israel and the two Palestinian territories and form one country and call it Canaan. I would make Jerusalem its own city-state like Singapore with its own government since Jerusalem is home to Judaism, Christianity and Muslim religions.
It would take 2 or three generations but we would have peace.
But then you may say I'm just a dreamer...
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 11-29-11 09:05 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Maringa
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Posts: 331
Reg: 11-06-08
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11-29-11 01:57 PM - Post#142791
In response to carygold
Not bad suggestions Cary; however, you have one major problem...I can predict that 600,000 people would die as a result of them trying to agree to the new name Canaan, and the color of the new flag...
The Middle Eastern concept of tribalism (Jewish and Arab) is hard to die off...You are right...it will take, I believe, at least 2 or three more generations to transition to a more peaceful existence...
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lostyankee
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Posts: 1263
Reg: 10-27-05
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11-29-11 08:13 PM - Post#142809
In response to carygold
You're the one who brought religion into the mix as a reason for supporting Palestine, not me.
Let's be honest: Jews would be being killed at a rate greater than Palestinians today if it weren't for the creation of Israel. It's the only way to guarantee their survival.
You'll never see Israel cede the land back, or go back to pre-67 borders, at least not as long as terrorist organizations like Hamas exist. Until Moslems accempt Jews and acknowledge their right to a homeland, there will never be peace.
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carygold
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11-30-11 11:24 AM - Post#142832
In response to lostyankee
You're the one who brought religion into the mix as a reason for supporting Palestine, not me.
Let's be honest: Jews would be being killed at a rate greater than Palestinians today if it weren't for the creation of Israel. It's the only way to guarantee their survival.
You'll never see Israel cede the land back, or go back to pre-67 borders, at least not as long as terrorist organizations like Hamas exist. Until Moslems accempt Jews and acknowledge their right to a homeland, there will never be peace.
WOW you didn't just drink the Kool-aid you made another pitcher full.
Jews live in Iran, Sudia Arabia, Egypt, Russia, Europe, South America and of course the U.S. Jews were in no danger anywhere but Nazi Germany and its occupied territories and maybe in the southern US by the KKK.
It was the creation of Israel that started the problem... maybe you need to read some history.
There was no Israel for over 1000 years. The British that made Palestine a country AND they did it with a Jewish settlement agreement in 1917 as the Jewish National Home.
Balfour Declaration of 1917
It was not until after WWII that the Jews started killing, with car bombs, Palestinian Leaders and what remained of the British leadership that lead, with US pressure, the UN to declare most of Palestine ...the new country of Israel.
That is when the problem started...the Jews already lived there in peace for generations until 1948 when the country changed its name and ran thousands of people off of their family land, the local people were forced out of their homes. Palestinians were forced from land and homes that had been in their families for generations. Wouldn't you be angry?
Why should these people lose their homes because Hitler killed Jews in Germany?
I will agree the Palestinians are fighting in a dirty and cowardly way, but don't think these are just crazy people with no reason for being crazy. These people have been watching their home land whittled away over 60 years, their homes bulldozed, and their new homes invaded with no civil rights, and they have seen their people shot in the streets on the way to market, including young children.
There are two sides to this story and neither one is in the right...not one. The problem began in 1948 with the creation of Israel, there was general peace before then.
You are correct though, Israel will not go away, at least not as long as there is a United States, because no one else cares but us.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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mgrayar
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Reg: 09-25-09
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11-30-11 11:32 PM - Post#142869
In response to carygold
The problem began long before 1948.
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carygold
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12-01-11 09:19 AM - Post#142875
In response to mgrayar
The problem began long before 1948.
and? 
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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mgrayar
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Posts: 3164
Reg: 09-25-09
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12-01-11 10:19 AM - Post#142879
In response to carygold
And what? Did Jerusalem begin to exist in 1948?
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lostyankee
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12-01-11 09:31 PM - Post#142924
In response to carygold
Cary and Ahmedinajadh.... separated at birth.
So the land of David is not Israel and should not exist? You deny that the Jews lived in this land? Is that it?
Sorry, your anti Semitism is showing.
Edited by lostyankee on 12-01-11 09:57 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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carygold
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12-05-11 12:26 PM - Post#143020
In response to lostyankee
Cary and Ahmedinajadh.... separated at birth.
So the land of David is not Israel and should not exist? You deny that the Jews lived in this land? Is that it?
Sorry, your anti Semitism is showing.
I wondered how long it would take you to start calling me names. Anyone that questions US policy in Israel is quickly labeled an anti-Semite.... It keeps people from having a rational discussion.
If you would have read what I posted you would have seen the Balfour Declaration of 1917, clearly says Palestine is a Jewish home land. IN 1917
If you would stop for five minutes and read history, the Jews did live peacefully in Palestine for over 1000 years.
Except for the time the Christian Crusaders slaughtered Jews in Germany and in Jerusalem in the 1500's.
The problem did not start until 1948, when Palestinians were forcably removed from their homes and the land was re-name Israel.
Answer this question...
Why should people in Palestine be removed from their homes for what the Nazis did in Germany?
No one can honestly answer that question.
The land of David? That was 1000 years before the birth of Christ. That has nothing to do with today's issue, unless you think we should give US land back to Native Americans as well.
Israel is Israel, its here to stay, but if you think this conflict is all unreasonable Palestinians you should read some history, I don't think you know anything about the region.
Did you know may Jews disagree with Israel being a state... are they anti-Semite too?
How can people discuss the 62 year conflict in Israel if any disagreement is met with name calling like Anti-Semite?
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 12-05-11 12:28 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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