carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-13-12 01:44 PM - Post#146563
I had no opinion on this until I started seeing that the truth of the matter is all of the voter fraud in the last 10 or 12 years amount to just over 100 people nation wide in all elections.
Most of the fraud was for local influence, vote buying, seating of vote counters, things an ID would not solve.
There are 100 times more convictions for corrupt officials than for individual voter fraud.
Texas, the second largest state had 1 case in 10 years.
Also in the Texas ID Law a photo ID from a University cannot be used, but a Handgun License can be used, that easily shows who the law is trying to block from voting.
This is an obvious effort to block voters not protect the polls from fraud.
Voter Fraud is a felony which carry's a 5 year prison sentence.
Republican Lawyers Group's Own Study Undercuts Vote Fraud Claims
In the states with higher convictions of improper voting, most involved voters improperly filling out registration forms, vote buying or a person with a felony conviction attempting to vote. Vote buying occurs when a voter is paid or offered money for their vote. Neither of these issues would be prevented by state photo ID requirement.
Administration blocks Texas voter ID law
Truth About Voter Fraud
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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nomoon
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Posts: 984
Loc: Allen
Reg: 05-31-06
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03-13-12 03:46 PM - Post#146568
In response to carygold
Conviction is hard, which explains the low conviction rate. Prevention is easier. The aim of the Voter ID law is to make it harder to do.
One of the talking points on the subject appear to be to tout the low conviction rates as proof that it rarely happens.
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carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-13-12 05:50 PM - Post#146570
In response to nomoon
I think you make a good point except, the numbers are not low, in the last 10 years in the State of Texas they in fact don't actually exist.
There was only one conviction in Texas for Voter Fraud in the last 10 years and it was for illegally possessing and transporting ballots.
Not an issue that a voter ID would solve.
In addition, most college campus's have voting polls on campus, yet the Texas Voter ID Law does not allow Campus ID's with or without a photo to be used as a voter ID. That's when the red flag went up for me.
This law is not about fighting a crime that does not exist, its about controlling who can vote.
The hardest way to throw an election is by voting fraudulently and with a 5 year prison sentence for committing the crime, the risk-reward is basically non-existant.
Most fraud is by buying votes, rigging the counting committee, tampering with ballots, or robo calling and announcing a winner before the polls close. A voter ID system solves none of these.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 03-13-12 05:56 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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lostyankee
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Posts: 1263
Reg: 10-27-05
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03-13-12 06:43 PM - Post#146573
In response to carygold
The problem is not that it IS or IS NOT happening but is that it can happen:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/0 3/13...
Surely one of the most sacred rights we have can bear protection of a voter ID law. You can't do hardly anything without proper ID.
I buy insurance for the same reason. I don't plan to run off the road into a tree, but damn glad I'm covered if I do.
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carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-13-12 07:54 PM - Post#146574
In response to lostyankee
Also a good point, but it was the number of cars accidents with uninsured people that caused the creation of a law to enforce the purchase of car insurance, not a possibility of them. The law answered a problem.
There is no voter fraud problem in Texas. A person is more likely to be struck by lightning than to commit voter fraud.
The fact is, it is not to protect the election process that the law is being created, instead it is to eliminate voters.
Texas Voter ID Law does not allow Campus ID's with or without a photo to be used as a voter ID, but you can use a gun license.
The intended outcome is obvious.
Today you can use:
- Voter Registration Card
- Official mail addressed to the person, by name, from a governmental entity
- A copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the person’s name and address
- A form of ID containing the person’s photo that establishes the person’s identity.
These have all been removed in the new law, yet the old law has not be broken in the last ten years maybe more.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 03-13-12 07:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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nomoon
enthusiast
Posts: 984
Loc: Allen
Reg: 05-31-06
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03-13-12 08:14 PM - Post#146575
In response to carygold
... yet the old law has not be broken in the last ten years maybe more.
You are ignoring the only point that I made. Just because there have been no convictions, doesn't mean that the law hasn't been broken.
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lostyankee
enthusiast
Posts: 1263
Reg: 10-27-05
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03-13-12 08:16 PM - Post#146576
In response to carygold
I'm not OK with waiting for voter fraud to happen. Whether or not it has happened is immaterial to the matter. The right is too precious to allow fraud to happen. This is just another issue the loony left has cocked up to distract us from the failed policies of a inept leader.
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civicminded
Community Guide
Posts: 9255
Loc: Lone Star State
Reg: 04-24-02
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03-13-12 08:27 PM - Post#146577
In response to lostyankee
I'm not OK with waiting for voter fraud to happen. Whether or not it has happened is immaterial to the matter. The right is too precious to allow fraud to happen. This is just another issue the loony left has cocked up to distract us from the failed policies of a inept leader.
Good point. Some cite examples of college ID's or those permitted to carry a weapon. Clearly the gun carry person has been checked out (or vetted more as some would say). The college ID is too likely to be carried by someone we can't verify their citizenship. Heck they might as well run for Office, and simply tell us where they want us to think they're from. Just sayin'. 
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r75002
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Posts: 421
Reg: 06-03-06
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03-13-12 10:08 PM - Post#146580
In response to civicminded
General reply.
Seems to me that the easiest way to solve the problem is to do away with the whole voter registration process and just make the driver's license or the DPS issued ID card the official voter registration document. When you got your DL or ID you would be automatically registered to vote in the precinct for the listed address (once citizenship was varified). Provisions could be made for those medically incapable of getting to the DPS office. Otherwise, any reason for someone not wanting to go to the DPS office (and I can't think of any valid reason other than someone having a warrant out or having committed a crime) to get a DL or ID is IMO a reason I don't want that person voting.
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civicminded
Community Guide
Posts: 9255
Loc: Lone Star State
Reg: 04-24-02
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03-13-12 10:25 PM - Post#146581
In response to r75002
r, you have a good and simple solution there. Wonder why we can't go with that? Heck we even started seeing cities require the ID when you take the entrance exam....because some unsupervised human got a friend to take the exam for him. True story. I worked with this guy until his act leaked out and he left the scene!  
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chf
enthusiast
Posts: 493
Loc: NW Allen
Reg: 12-22-07
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03-14-12 12:24 AM - Post#146583
In response to r75002
General reply.
Seems to me that the easiest way to solve the problem is to do away with the whole voter registration process and just make the driver's license or the DPS issued ID card the official voter registration document. When you got your DL or ID you would be automatically registered to vote in the precinct for the listed address (once citizenship was varified). Provisions could be made for those medically incapable of getting to the DPS office. Otherwise, any reason for someone not wanting to go to the DPS office (and I can't think of any valid reason other than someone having a warrant out or having committed a crime) to get a DL or ID is IMO a reason I don't want that person voting.
Fine, as long as there is absolutely zero cost to the non-DL ID card. This would include the waiving of any fees required to obtain a certified copy of a birth certificate or other documentation required to establish citizenship. Otherwise, this would become an unconstitutional poll tax.
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carygold
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Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-14-12 08:38 AM - Post#146588
In response to civicminded
Good point. Some cite examples of college ID's or those permitted to carry a weapon. Clearly the gun carry person has been checked out (or vetted more as some would say). The college ID is too likely to be carried by someone we can't verify their citizenship. Heck they might as well run for Office, and simply tell us where they want us to think they're from. Just sayin'.
I wondered who was going to make that dumb statement.
People who are not citizens cannot register to vote and therefore will not be on the list at the polling place.
Again, in the last 10 years not one non-citizen has been prosecuted.
I work around people from other countries that are students in local universities. They are here on student visa's and would not dream of sacrificing their education to vote in an election. Many of these kids are taking 6 or 7 classes while American Kids are taking 4 classes. These kids are focused.
Eliminating college ID's with photos, those ID's are paid for and require lots of documentation to get, is right wing voter suppression.
Again no one had been convicted in the state of Texas.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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richardb
enthusiast
Posts: 406
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-17-00
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03-15-12 06:07 AM - Post#146630
In response to carygold
Good point. Some cite examples of college ID's or those permitted to carry a weapon. Clearly the gun carry person has been checked out (or vetted more as some would say). The college ID is too likely to be carried by someone we can't verify their citizenship. Heck they might as well run for Office, and simply tell us where they want us to think they're from. Just sayin'.
I wondered who was going to make that dumb statement.
Again, in the last 10 years not one non-citizen has been prosecuted.
Again no one had been convicted in the state of Texas.
Then requiring a picture ID shouldn't create a problem. Only those who have something to hide would be affected. Just because there have been no convictions only means there hasn't been any measures in place to catch it. The Obama administration knows their greatest chance of re-election is to bring out a heavy hispanic vote and their attempt is to create the spin that Republicans are against hispanics. Again, only those with something to hide would object to this measure.
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carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-15-12 08:58 AM - Post#146631
In response to richardb
Then requiring a picture ID shouldn't create a problem. Only those who have something to hide would be affected. Just because there have been no convictions only means there hasn't been any measures in place to catch it. The Obama administration knows their greatest chance of re-election is to bring out a heavy hispanic vote and their attempt is to create the spin that Republicans are against hispanics. Again, only those with something to hide would object to this measure.
Where do you get these ideas? There are plenty of people, political groups and other organizations that look at registrations, voting lists, and ballots. Do you know anything about how many people go through this data every election?
Those affected by a voter ID law will be minorities that ride a bus to work, College students that live on campus or ride a bus, and the elderly who depend on help to get to the polls. In short it hurts mostly Democratic voters.
Its not about having something to hide that's what right wing media wants you to think, its about adding hurdles to a select group of people to keep them from voting.
Its too hard to win an election by having people vote more than once, or getting a few convicts to vote, but its easy to keep most of the poor people away with a pole tax.
Making people that work by the hour take time out of their work week, which costs money, to spend up to a whole day standing in line to get a Voter ID card is a pole tax.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
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chf
enthusiast
Posts: 493
Loc: NW Allen
Reg: 12-22-07
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03-15-12 09:00 AM - Post#146633
In response to richardb
Again, only those with something to hide would object to this measure.
Not true. I have nothing to hide, but I'm against this measure because I'm against the obvious attempt by the Republican Party to disenfranchise voters that tend to vote Democratic. The inclusion of concealed carry permits as valid proof of citizenship, and the exclusion of state issued photo IDs from state universities makes it painfully obvious. This measure plays to an anti-immigrant sentiment that the Republican party has used to their advantage for many years, while masquerading as a common sense solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
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richardb
enthusiast
Posts: 406
Loc: Allen
Reg: 04-17-00
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03-15-12 10:42 PM - Post#146668
In response to chf
Again, only those with something to hide would object to this measure.
Not true. I have nothing to hide, but I'm against this measure because I'm against the obvious attempt by the Republican Party to disenfranchise voters that tend to vote Democratic. The inclusion of concealed carry permits as valid proof of citizenship, and the exclusion of state issued photo IDs from state universities makes it painfully obvious. This measure plays to an anti-immigrant sentiment that the Republican party has used to their advantage for many years, while masquerading as a common sense solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
Not anti-immigrant, but rather anti-illegal immigrant. Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about. Very simple.
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chf
enthusiast
Posts: 493
Loc: NW Allen
Reg: 12-22-07
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03-15-12 11:31 PM - Post#146669
In response to richardb
Again, only those with something to hide would object to this measure.
Not true. I have nothing to hide, but I'm against this measure because I'm against the obvious attempt by the Republican Party to disenfranchise voters that tend to vote Democratic. The inclusion of concealed carry permits as valid proof of citizenship, and the exclusion of state issued photo IDs from state universities makes it painfully obvious. This measure plays to an anti-immigrant sentiment that the Republican party has used to their advantage for many years, while masquerading as a common sense solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
Not anti-immigrant, but rather anti-illegal immigrant. Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about. Very simple.
No, it's not really that simple. But you, like many others, have been convinced that it's that simple to serve the real purpose of these efforts: vote suppression.
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Maringa
enthusiast
Posts: 331
Reg: 11-06-08
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03-17-12 09:39 PM - Post#146709
In response to chf
Only in our country can it be regarded as vote suppression. Only in our country...Every where else, a national ID, Citizenship verification is adamantly required without any objection.
Only in our country...did I say "only in our country?"
Edited by Maringa on 03-17-12 09:41 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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carygold
enthusiast
Posts: 4961
Reg: 05-30-08
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03-18-12 12:27 PM - Post#146714
In response to Maringa
Only in our country can it be regarded as vote suppression. Only in our country...Every where else, a national ID, Citizenship verification is adamantly required without any objection.
Only in our country...did I say "only in our country?"
Much like Jim Crow laws, separate but equal, poll taxes, bombing of black churches, burning Crosses, only in our country.
If you look at the Social Security card the words "this is not to be use as an ID card" is in direct response to Republican's opposing a national ID card. It appears an ID only ok when it benefits your party.
Again a college Id is not easy to get, but it cannot be used even at polling places on a state college campus. Who does that benefit if students have to find the time, money and transportation to acquire another ID or cannot vote.
If CEO's increased their pay at the same rate as Average Americans
their pay would average $1,384,890 not $10,621,000 |
Edited by carygold on 03-18-12 12:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Maringa
enthusiast
Posts: 331
Reg: 11-06-08
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03-18-12 02:46 PM - Post#146715
In response to carygold
Does a student ID verify legal, citizenship, residency status? I'm not sure, but if not, then it shouldn't be a valid form of ID for voting. Again if many are claiming a student ID should be a valid means of ID, why not take it to the next step and have it provide (magnetic, or whatever) to provide the information necessary for valid voting? I'm sure that can be worked out...I imagine that is the reason it was rejected...not a descriminatory reason...
As for a national ID...I'm not opposed to it...used (British/Brazilian) ID's for years. But could not vote since I was't a citizen of their country...It was clear on the ID that I wasn't a citizen of their country.
"Much like Jim Crow laws, separate but equal, poll taxes, bombing of black churches, burning Crosses, only in our country"...Yep, I agree, only in our country...Question...can an ID (free, readily available, etc, or any other type of verification be made that ensures this, without creating the objection above? I know our heavy and unforgiving political atmosphere prevents this from moving on, but it seems like the majority of the world figured this out, why can't we?
Edited by Maringa on 03-18-12 02:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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