SB
enthusiast
Posts: 1551
Reg: 09-07-03
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05-20-14 09:56 AM - Post#168691
In response to StacyLynn624
Complete CF. Who hired these guys...
PBK Architects has an impressive resume of stadium projects, including PISDs Kimbrough Stadium.
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rw
member
Posts: 617
Reg: 10-11-01
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05-20-14 10:06 AM - Post#168692
In response to SB
Complete CF. Who hired these guys...
PBK Architects has an impressive resume of stadium projects, including PISDs Kimbrough Stadium.
Don't let things like reason and fact get in the way of a good opportunity to draw conclusions and assign blame and assess punishment.
I'd say this new development will add at least 5 pages to this topic...
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mgrayar
enthusiast
Posts: 3859
Reg: 09-25-09
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05-20-14 10:06 AM - Post#168693
In response to Will
It now seems clear to me that the administrators that chose not to alert the public when the flaws first raised their concern have some questions to answer.
I don't know that I would assume there was some sort of cover-up. Most buildings with exposed concrete have some cracking. I noticed some fairly large cracks that had been filled in the concourse at Toyota Stadium in Frisco. At some point, things progressed from noticing some small cracks, to thinking the cracks were unsightly, to wondering if the cracks were "normal," to thinking the cracks might be a real problem. The administrators may have acted reasonably all along that process. I'm not willing to infer some intent to hide a safety issue, but would certainly respect anyone who wants to take a "trust but verify" approach.
They ordered the study well before the public was notified. They then closed the stadium after football season (a fee months after) but before the study concluded anything related to safety concerns. Something isn't adding up. I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but benefits are running out on this episode. As someone before said, what a CF!!
Again, everyone is very lucky this didn't result in anything other than bad PR and lost revenue.
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Edited by mgrayar on 05-20-14 10:09 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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StacyLynn624
enthusiast
Posts: 1091
Loc: West Side
Reg: 09-24-04
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05-20-14 10:38 AM - Post#168694
In response to SB
Complete CF. Who hired these guys...
PBK Architects has an impressive resume of stadium projects, including PISDs Kimbrough Stadium.
That's fine and dandy, but the Architects didn't pour the concrete. Right?
I personally don't think the blame stops with the contractor or architect. This isn't one of those "these things just happen" mistakes. This is from lack of experience.
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Jeremy
enthusiast
Posts: 454
Loc: Allen, Tx
Reg: 06-20-11
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05-20-14 10:50 AM - Post#168695
In response to StacyLynn624
That's fine and dandy, but the Architects didn't pour the concrete. Right?
I personally don't think the blame stops with the contractor or architect. This isn't one of those "these things just happen" mistakes. This is from lack of experience.
I don't quite follow. "lack of experience" on who's part? The board? If you look back at the last 10 years of board elections... can you point out anyone result, that if different, would have placed a person on the board that had experience building a stadium?
There is still the final engineering report coming out in June but it is looking more and more like both PBK and Pogue are at fault for this one.
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StacyLynn624
enthusiast
Posts: 1091
Loc: West Side
Reg: 09-24-04
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05-20-14 10:56 AM - Post#168696
In response to Jeremy
I guess you aren't following me.
Pouge had never built a stadium. The Architects have experience, fine, but that doesn't make them above mistakes. The Contractor that actually built the thing had Zero experience building stadiums.
I'm blaming the Architect and the Contractors equally, but the blame shouldn't stop there. They didn't become the chosen Architect and Contractor on their own. The Board chose them.
Out of all of the bids, why was Pouge chosen, for example? Where's the transparency? If there were several like bids, why would the taxpayers be ok going with one that didn't have any experience building any stadiums? Are you ok with that? I'm not. I think it was a bad choice by the Board.
If you're going to build a stadium, especially one as expensive as this one, go with someone who's built one before. That's not a tough decision to make, IMO.
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StacyLynn624
enthusiast
Posts: 1091
Loc: West Side
Reg: 09-24-04
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05-20-14 10:59 AM - Post#168697
In response to StacyLynn624
"Partial findings by Nelson Forensics indicate that some support structures were not designed in a way that would hold the weight anticipated on that level of the stadium."
"However, Pogue’s analysis also found failures to completely fill the concourse pan deck during concrete pours, which created a “honeycomb effect,” letters show."
"“These construction failures exacerbate the already deficient design,” the district’s attorney wrote PBK and Pogue in an April 4 letter."
"For example, in isolated areas, the space between stirrups — bent rods used to reinforce joists — was 1 inch larger than the building code allows, Nelson Forensics found."
"The firm identified areas in the stadium where the load demand on the structure exceeded accepted building standards by 10 to 20 percent. In isolated locations, that number was greater than 70 percent, according to the firm’s analysis."
"Officials said they will wait until the report is complete to make decisions about repairs. Fixing the stadium could take six to eight months, Hindt said."
Bad design.
Bad concrete pour.
Not following code.
Six to eight month fix AFTER final report released and the litigation you know is coming is done. (I think the 2015 season is at risk)
Was Pogue supervising the subs during the construction of the stadium?
Was AISD supervising Pogue during the construction of the stadium?
Lots of questions....answers not so much.
Experienced stadium contractors don't make these mistakes.
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Jeremy
enthusiast
Posts: 454
Loc: Allen, Tx
Reg: 06-20-11
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05-20-14 11:12 AM - Post#168698
In response to StacyLynn624
I follow what you are saying now. I fully agree that a prime contractor (Pogue) should monitor and be responsible for their subs (concrete people).
Hopefully one of the things that the report will show is who is responsible for the "bent rods" finding. Was it incorrectly designed too long or was it executed incorrectly?
As for the transparency comment... that comes up a lot for many people... I think the board did what was within their rights. We elect them to make those decisions... not to lead us in the decision process. I look at it like when an HOA makes a landscaper selection or the city chooses the trash contractor. We normally don't have a say. I'm sure that all of the bids are available through an FOIA request. That is the best way to get absolute proof about... 1. how many bids there were... 2. was Pogue the lowest... 3. how many others matched their bid. Without the documents it is just speculation regarding how they were chosen but I don't think there were any nefarious things going on.
To answer your question... Yes... I'm fine with the amount of transparency since that is why they are elected. No... I'm not ok with the fact that it is not the stadium we were promised by Pogue and PBK.
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pup
enthusiast
Posts: 3933
Reg: 03-29-06
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05-20-14 11:14 AM - Post#168699
In response to StacyLynn624
The tiny percent of Allen that bothers to vote has no intention of holding anyone accountable.....so, we need to move on to attempting to make sure it is repaired correctly, repaired in a timely fashion and at no cost to the taxpayers of Allen.
And instead of the AISD reacting to news stories, they need to get out in front of them.
But again, who will hold them accountable to make sure this happens? The voters sure aren't interested in doing so.
Maybe when people are scrambling for a seat in Plano this fall, things will start to hit home and things will matter.
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pup
enthusiast
Posts: 3933
Reg: 03-29-06
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05-20-14 11:46 AM - Post#168700
In response to pup
Gone national....again.
http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id/109 57536/allen-high-school-f ootball-stadium-close-fal l-deemed-unsafe
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StacyLynn624
enthusiast
Posts: 1091
Loc: West Side
Reg: 09-24-04
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05-20-14 12:13 PM - Post#168701
In response to Jeremy
All of those entities have a fiduciary responsibility to make the best decisions that use the money they are entrusted wisely. In this case, they put all of that money in the hands of a company that had never built a stadium before. Bad decision.
I am one of the voters in last week's election, and I voted against the only Board member who was there when this decision was made. To me, it was an example of a bad decision that did not have the taxpayers interest at heart for the best and highest use of that money, among other things.
Of course, I voted against that particular bond, because I wanted the Board to go back to the drawing board and come up with something more reasonable. I knew of the need for a stadium, but I was smart enough to realize that if it was voted down, there would be another opportunity for a new stadium. The voters didn't understand that. They thought they would be stuck with the Old Eagle Stadium forever and ever.
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StacyLynn624
enthusiast
Posts: 1091
Loc: West Side
Reg: 09-24-04
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05-20-14 12:14 PM - Post#168702
In response to pup
This is all over Twitter. Fox News just tweeted it. Many random Americans tweeting about excess. We're the laughing stock. Again.
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Jeremy
enthusiast
Posts: 454
Loc: Allen, Tx
Reg: 06-20-11
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05-20-14 12:32 PM - Post#168703
In response to StacyLynn624
This is all over Twitter. Fox News just tweeted it. Many random Americans tweeting about excess. We're the laughing stock. Again.
You put way too much stock in what other people think if you really think that. The comments I have seen are people saying we should have used that money for books or to pay teachers. We should work on getting the kids to graduate. Some even said it was paid for by the wealthy football boosters. These people don't live in Allen and many of them don't even live in Texas. They don't know that it was paid for by a bond approved by the voters and if not in the bond the money would have not been used for anything.
Just read them and smile like I do. This will all be resolved somehow and I don't think the school will allow the epoxy fix.
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scuba26
member
Posts: 58
Reg: 08-26-06
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05-20-14 12:57 PM - Post#168704
In response to Jeremy
Lost in all this mess are the kids, especially seniors, who are being affected now that they can't use the home stadium to play their last season in.
I do feel bad for them.....
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Allensince1993
enthusiast
Posts: 521
Reg: 06-06-12
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05-20-14 01:18 PM - Post#168705
In response to scuba26
Lost in all this mess are the kids, especially seniors, who are being affected now that they can't use the home stadium to play their last season in.
I do feel bad for them.....
I agree but the coaches have been amazing. They have taught them to focus only on what you can control. I asked my son if he knew the games were in Plano next season and he said, "no". The player's focus reflects those of the coaches and its no wonder we've won back-to-back championships.
James DeLaGarza
Realtor/Broker since 1992 |
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DrivinTooFast
enthusiast
Posts: 1874
Reg: 02-20-08
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05-20-14 04:28 PM - Post#168708
In response to SB
Complete CF. Who hired these guys...
PBK Architects has an impressive resume of stadium projects, including PISDs Kimbrough Stadium.
The death of this execution is in the complexity of the design. IF this was a normal stadium like Kimborough where the vast majority is simple aluminum girders, risers and super structure plopped onto a concrete pad - then YES they have done it before. BUT this is a vastly more complex structure with high load bearing concrete pillars extensive spans of concrete decking, heavy brick facades raised up over 40 feet to make room for the swiss army knife stadium design. Keep in mind the top level of the stadium is over 100 feet above the sunken floor. The entire concourse floats over 40 feet above the ground.
IF they would have created two structures - A normally designed stadium and a separate weight room, golf driving range, wrestling center, juice bar and who knows what else then the design would have been easier, cheaper to implement, within the scope of knowledge for both the designer and contractor, cheaper to maintain AND LOWER RISK.
This is a testament to excessive hubris and not fully understanding the engineering risks associated to such a complex structure.
Heck renting Clark at $5500 per game seems like a bargain compared to the $2 Million + per year INTEREST payment on the bonds.
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Jimi Ray Clapton
enthusiast
Posts: 2394
Reg: 09-03-07
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05-20-14 04:36 PM - Post#168709
In response to StacyLynn624
I voted against that particular bond, because I wanted the Board to go back to the drawing board and come up with something more reasonable. I knew of the need for a stadium, but I was smart enough to realize that if it was voted down, there would be another opportunity for a new stadium. The voters didn't understand that. They thought they would be stuck with the Old Eagle Stadium forever and ever.
 
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DrivinTooFast
enthusiast
Posts: 1874
Reg: 02-20-08
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05-20-14 05:38 PM - Post#168712
In response to Jimi Ray Clapton
Ditto, I voted NO and I go to every game - home and away.
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TF22
member
Posts: 28
Reg: 01-08-01
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05-20-14 06:17 PM - Post#168713
In response to DrivinTooFast
Why do they have to rent Plano's stadium. Can't they play in the old Allen stadium?
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chf
enthusiast
Posts: 574
Loc: NW Allen
Reg: 12-22-07
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05-20-14 08:01 PM - Post#168714
In response to TF22
Why do they have to rent Plano's stadium. Can't they play in the old Allen stadium?
I'm sure there are other reasons, but a primary reason, I'm sure, is cost. The old stadium only seats about 7000 without the addition of temporary stands. For many years prior to the new stadium, the district rented an additional 7000 or so seats at a cost of around $250,000 for the season. Renting a Plano stadium three times will cost less than $20,000 for the season.
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