ridemore
newbie
Posts: 16
Reg: 09-21-08
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10-05-08 08:56 PM - Post#64739
I would like to build on some other posts about cycling in Allen. How do we get more people out there on their bikes?
Allen has a 1999 bicycle plan. I am trying to get them to accelerate their plans so I need inputs on what cyclists think is the most critical thing to do first in Allen.
- What do you think the priorities should be (trails, street markings or awareness)?
- Where do you want to see the trails accelerated?
- What streets do you want to see as bike routes?
- How do you think we can make motorists more aware of cyclists sharing the road?
I will take these inputs to meetings with the City and then we will have a plan to take to City Council.
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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10-06-08 09:05 AM - Post#64763
In response to ridemore
Ridemore,
Thanks for taking the initiative and being an advocate for bicyclists in the area.
- Street markings (where the trail crosses a road) and Bicycling awareness should be first priority. (Safety first!).
- Trail maintenance should be the next priority. I've recently noticed a few spots on the trails which have been marked with graffiti. It would be nice if the city would quickly remove/cover these spots to discourage additional graffiti.
- Third priority should be to continue to expand the trails system. I would especially like to see the Cottonwood Creek trail connect to the trails up by Allen Station park.
- In addition Allen needs to plan in corporation with McKinney and Plano to try and make sure that our bike paths mesh up with their planned bike paths. I wish it were easier to get to the CCCC Spring Creek campus durring rush hour (that is the location of the closest DART bus stop in East Allen).
- The obvious choice of bike routes are McDermott/Main, Bethany, and Exchange for east/west routes; and Alma, Watters, Greenville, Jupiter, Allen Heights, and Malone for north/south routes.
- How do we make motorists more aware of cyclists sharing the road? Labeling the above streets as bike routes with signs would be a good first step.
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rclark
enthusiast
Posts: 800
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 01-16-08
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10-06-08 09:22 AM - Post#64768
In response to Joe Schirmer
As a "wannabe" rider, I would like to be able to ride safely for extended distances at the fastest speeds I can sustain (not very high currently!) without needing to stop every few hundred yards. To allow this, I would like to see a system of either multilane roads or roads with wide shoulders that interconect well enough that a bicyclist can get places without risking his or her life in the bottlenecks. Explicit bike trails would help out here, but primarily, we need slightly wider roads. Bicyclists will continue to annoy motorists as long as the cars cannot safely pass a bicycle.
I see the city greenbelt trails as primarily a pedestrian system. They are good for a lesiurely ride with the family, at pedestrian compatible speeds, but not appropriate for high speed riding. Even so, I would like see more trails with better connections. This would help commuters bypass nasty spots on the roadways, and allow safer leisure riding.
Two plus two equals five, for sufficiently large values of two.
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Clark
enthusiast
Posts: 362
Loc: Allen
Reg: 07-28-08
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10-06-08 11:34 AM - Post#64797
In response to rclark
Could someone tell me … approximately how many bicycling enthusiasts are there in Allen? I don’t mean what rclark refers to as those who take a leisurely ride with the family, but serious cyclists. Unless it is a much larger number than I’d expect, I would then ask, “Why should the city spend that much of its tax money for something that will benefit so few?” I can’t imagine the “wants” listed in these three posts as being anything but very expensive.
At the risk of offending, and that is not my intent, I will offer some thoughts and pose a couple of questions, playing the part of devil’s advocate.
- Where do you want to see the trails accelerated?
- What streets do you want to see as bike routes?
- How do you think we can make motorists more aware of cyclists sharing the road?
1. I don’t, unless funded by private funds.
2. Non-thoroughfare roadways. Major streets, such as McDermott/Main, Bethany, etc., are much too dangerous.
3. I don’t have an answer for that. I’m inclined to believe that when motorists become aware of cyclists “sharing the road” it tends to annoy more than anything else. “Sharing” implies a voluntary action. Do you think it possible that many motorists don’t view it as “sharing”, but as an unwelcome imposition?
- Trail maintenance should be the next priority. I've recently noticed a few spots on the trails which have been marked with graffiti. It would be nice if the city would quickly remove/cover these spots to discourage additional graffiti.
- Third priority should be to continue to expand the trails system. I would especially like to see the Cottonwood Creek trail connect to the trails up by Allen Station park.
- In addition Allen needs to plan in corporation with McKinney and Plano to try and make sure that our bike paths mesh up with their planned bike paths. I wish it were easier to get to the CCCC Spring Creek campus durring rush hour (that is the location of the closest DART bus stop in East Allen).
I would like to see a system of either multilane roads or roads with wide shoulders that interconect well enough that a bicyclist can get places without risking his or her life in the bottlenecks. Explicit bike trails would help out here, but primarily, we need slightly wider roads.
How do you propose to pay for this? Tax money, or private funds? If private funds, go for it!
Questions:
1. It is my understanding that bicyclists are supposed to obey the same laws as drivers of automobiles. If so, when was the last time you saw a cyclist approach a stop light and stop in line behind the four cars already there? Or do you see them ride alongside the cars to the front?
2. In order to drive a car on a public street, that car must be properly licensed, with a licensed driver with a minimum amount of liability insurance, current registration, and have a valid safety inspection sticker. Why should the same not be true with bicycles? If a cyclist does something stupid and rides right into a car, who pays the damages?
Edited by Clark on 10-06-08 11:35 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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sco
enthusiast
Posts: 2669
Loc: allen,TX USA
Reg: 10-26-02
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10-06-08 12:35 PM - Post#64806
In response to Clark
I am not cycling enthusiast but I can see the benefit of making the city of Allen more cyclist friendly. The reality is that the country as a whole needs to look at ways to reduce our dependence on oil and change the whole car culture. There will come a day when we simply can't just keep building bigger and bigger roads. I can see a public benefit to making the city bicycle friendly so that people would not feel compelled to jump in their car just to go a mile and a half to the store. Even if you don't care about reducing oil consumption I would think we should care about air quality. There are many cities in this country that are bike friendly. The motorists share the road and people actually ride their bikes to run errands.
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rclark
enthusiast
Posts: 800
Loc: Allen, TX
Reg: 01-16-08
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10-06-08 02:24 PM - Post#64818
In response to Clark
I am not at all offended. Bike advocates must answer questions like this to persuade people to spend money the way they are suggesting. I hope you won't be offended either by my feeble attempt at some responses.
Can you tell me, approximately, how many disabled persons live in Allen? We, both as taxpayers and private business, spend a lot of money on ADA compliance - is it worth it? How many soccer players do we have in Allen - are the playing fields worth the expense? I'll gore one of my own oxen - how many band kids live in Allen? Are they worth the expense of all the band directors and equipement and facilities?
We as a society frequently do things collectively that benefit a fairly small subset of the population. While a cost/benefit tradeoff is always worth doing, it isn't the only factor. sco mentioned a few reasons we might want to spend some money to encourage bike riding. I can think of a few others. Increasing the attractiveness of our town as a place to live increases all of our property values, for instance. Dallas lost Boeing to Chicago partly because the CEO didn't want to live here.
I agree that retrofitting roads is a pretty expensive way to accomodate bicycles. Improvements to existing roads may have to wait to piggyback on other work. I disagree that we should write off major thoroghfares as "too dangerous" for bikes. That suggests bad road design to me, or at least bad road specifications. Let's fix them when we get the chance.
Bike safety comes from both cars and bikes behaving in predictable ways, with adequate separation. We need laws and roads that support this goal.
Most of the serious bike riders you see are taxpaying adults that probably drive registered and insured cars just as much as you and I. They all have driver's licenses, and are fully aware (as much as any driver!) of the traffic laws. The vast majority of them follow these laws and teach others to follow them. I don't think you can write off all bike riding just because of some idiots - if we did that, there are some folks on SH75 daily that are going to ruin it for us car drivers!
If poorly maintained bikes are causing problems on our roadways, I suppose we could develop an inspection system. I don't see any point if it is just a hazing ritual.
If I do something stupid, and ride right into a car, I, or my homeowner's liability insurance, will pay for it. Remember that the amount of damage a bicycle can do is quite a bit less than a similar stupidity in a car. I can put several thousand dollers of damage on your shiny new F150, but I probably won't total it.
Who pays? I expect that we will extort the trail improvements from developers as usual, at least until build-out. Road upgrades? I'm sure we can get a federal grant - that's free money, right? ;).
Two plus two equals five, for sufficiently large values of two.
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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10-06-08 02:54 PM - Post#64821
In response to Clark
Could someone tell me … approximately how many bicycling enthusiasts are there in Allen? I don’t mean what rclark refers to as those who take a leisurely ride with the family, but serious cyclists. Unless it is a much larger number than I’d expect, I would then ask, “Why should the city spend that much of its tax money for something that will benefit so few?” I can’t imagine the “wants” listed in these three posts as being anything but very expensive.
I'm not a "bicycling enthusiasts", I'm just someone who enjoys taking my bike out for a ride, and saving a little on gas from time to time. (I'm too fat and dumpy to be a "bicycling enthusiasts".)
You ask "Why should a city spend that much of its tax money for something that will benefit so few?".
First of all the trail system in Allen is used by Bicycles, and pedestrians alike. I assume you are a pedestrian. (If not, you really should try getting out more often ) And if that is the case then the city parks and recreation department should pay for the trails. Unless you are against parks and recreation as well...
And if you've been out on our roads then you can see that they are already being shared by bicyclists and cars in Allen. Complain if you like, but that is Texas law and I don't think it will change. And since that is the case then the city should consider bicyclists when the plan or improve roads in the area. (Bicyclists pay taxes too.)
Questions:
1. It is my understanding that bicyclists are supposed to obey the same laws as drivers of automobiles. If so, when was the last time you saw a cyclist approach a stop light and stop in line behind the four cars already there? Or do you see them ride alongside the cars to the front?
2. In order to drive a car on a public street, that car must be properly licensed, with a licensed driver with a minimum amount of liability insurance, current registration, and have a valid safety inspection sticker. Why should the same not be true with bicycles? If a cyclist does something stupid and rides right into a car, who pays the damages?
1. Every time I am bicycling and come up to a stop light I always stop behind cars that are already ahead of me. In addition, if there is no right turn lane and I am in front while the car behind me has his/her turn signal on, then I will move my bicycle to the far left side of the lane and motion for the cars to move past me and make their turn.
2. Cars take more skill and training in order to drive safely on our streets and highways. They also cause much more damage than a bike when driven recklessly which is why a car requires liability insurance. (You running into me will injure or kill me, me running into you might scratch your paint.) And in any situation the person a fault in an accident is the person who is financially responsible for damages in an accident.
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ridemore
newbie
Posts: 16
Reg: 09-21-08
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10-06-08 09:51 PM - Post#64891
In response to ridemore
I appreciate all the good input. I will summarize the responses to my original questions in about two weeks to allow time to have more inputs.
As to other questions posed about whether we should do this or how we should pay, I am not at that point yet. Can't answer those till we know what we have to do. Just looking for cyclists input at this point; the rest will follow.
Edited by ridemore on 10-06-08 09:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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BCingU
enthusiast
Posts: 170
Loc: allen, texas
Reg: 08-19-02
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10-07-08 11:01 AM - Post#64931
In response to ridemore
I am a somewhat frequent rider as well as a pedestrian here in Allen and have found that with the exception of the trails system in place, this really isn't a good place to be either. Even on the trails system I have occasionally encountered people using the system with small, gasoline powered "go karts" with little or no opposition. The practice seems to go with the notion that if one is paying for gasoline to go, one has the right to drive wherever and whenever one pleases and the pedestrian be damned! What if the City takes the point, so to speak, in making the city more pedestrian friendly by aggressively enforcing "Stop Lines" at intersections where there are crosswalks? Too many times as a pedestrian I have been forced to walk in the street as a result of someone's car completely blocking the crosswalk. Perhaps if those persons would be "asked" by the city to donate to the construction and maintainance of bicycle/pedestrian trailways, said trailways would be built without taxpayer expense and in a minimum of time!
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foreverfamily
member
Posts: 50
Reg: 01-11-08
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10-07-08 11:48 AM - Post#64936
In response to BCingU
No one is going to part with any of their hard earned cash to do something the city should have done in the first place. I ride my bike all over the city with my 5 children with me. We bike to soccer practice, volleyball practice, school, the skate park, library, even the bank. I want my kids to be in shape and save gas money. We can't win if we ride on the sidewalk, pedestrians are upset that they have to move to one side thinking the side"walks" are for walking but I can't take my kids on the road either because no one in a car wants to wait behind us and it is dangerous. I am not going to stop biking, but I wish that people could be more tolerant of the bike riders that are "not" professionals.
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Blanco
member
Posts: 69
Loc: Allen TX
Reg: 06-11-01
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10-08-08 03:57 PM - Post#65181
In response to foreverfamily
I'd like to see this completed. I'd love to be able to ride by bike to work!! Right now I mountain bike only.
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Mr. Coffee
enthusiast
Posts: 128
Reg: 08-07-07
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10-09-08 04:05 PM - Post#65337
In response to Blanco
I bike to work and would like to see this complete.
- What do you think the priorities should be (trails, street markings or awareness)?
Trails. Connections to key areas such as business areas, shopping locations (The new one by 75 and bethany is horrible by bike)
- Where do you want to see the trails accelerated?
Downtown, ACROSS 75, and connecting the trails that exist.
- What streets do you want to see as bike routes?
Greenville is wide enough now a bike lane could be added and would be good. Bethany, Allen Heights.
- How do you think we can make motorists more aware of cyclists sharing the road?
Good luck with that one.
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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10-10-08 09:18 AM - Post#65422
In response to Mr. Coffee
- What do you think the priorities should be (trails, street markings or awareness)?
Trails. Connections to key areas such as business areas, shopping locations (The new one by 75 and bethany is horrible by bike)
Depends on where you live. Watters Branch Trail goes from Watters Creek at Bethany to Ridgeview (north of Exchange). It's a very nice trail. But if you live in east Allen then it is difficult to cross 75 unless you take one of the major roads.
- How do you think we can make motorists more aware of cyclists sharing the road?
Good luck with that one.
Agreed. That is the most difficult task. But one idea might be to have designated Bike routes in Allen including signage on the roads that are designated bike routes. (See the Dallas bike plan for an example.)
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Phycon
newbie
Posts: 4
Reg: 11-05-08
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11-05-08 11:46 AM - Post#69118
In response to Joe Schirmer
I really want to see a mountain bike trail in Allen. It would be very possible to put a mtb trail at Allen Station Park that follows cottonwood creek over to east Allen.
| --A Penny for my thoughts? It ain't worth it!-- |
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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11-05-08 01:44 PM - Post#69150
In response to Phycon
You could make it interesting and trailblaze your own path. 
Some of the kids in the neighborhood already made their own mountain bike trail on the east side of the creek near the paved trail in Heritage Park. I'm sure there are other areas like that in Allen if you explore.
Also, try looking at DORBA's (Dallas Off Road Bicycle Association) web site. They have some good links to other trails in the area such as Rowlett Creek Preserve Trail (Garland), Sister Grove Park Trail (Lake Lavon), and Sister Grove Park Trail (McKinney).
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Phycon
newbie
Posts: 4
Reg: 11-05-08
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11-05-08 07:11 PM - Post#69181
In response to Joe Schirmer
Yes, I regularly ride the DORBA maintained erwin park trail. It's great, but it is a long drive up to the park if you go during evening rush hour...
| --A Penny for my thoughts? It ain't worth it!-- |
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TechnoDaddy
member
Posts: 88
Reg: 10-14-05
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12-21-08 11:40 AM - Post#74075
In response to Phycon
Hi guys,
If you guys are REALLY interested, I think it would be best for all of us to meet face to face to discuss a plan. I've been doing a lot of homework on this and have a pretty good (and realistic) plan. I even have the first $20k worth of outside sponsorship commitments.
If you are interested, please Private Message me and we'll set up a meeting time at a local Allen place.
Thanks!
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monita
enthusiast
Posts: 374
Reg: 06-05-08
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12-21-08 12:27 PM - Post#74076
In response to Blanco
Hey that's my hubbys nickname blanko LOL I guess it's different yours is with a c.
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MCAdventures
member
Posts: 98
Loc: East Allen #1
Reg: 08-06-04
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07-13-09 12:46 PM - Post#89609
In response to monita
I was just curious what ever happened with this plan. For a while it was a hot and heavy topic. Did the enthusiasts meet? How far did the 20k go? Just wondering if all hope was lost or someone or some group is still working on getting something accomplished.
Be who you are and say what you feel
because those that mind don't matter
and those that matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss |
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Joe Schirmer
enthusiast
Posts: 1325
Loc: SE Allen
Reg: 06-30-08
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07-13-09 01:52 PM - Post#89614
In response to MCAdventures
Good question. I never heard much more after this.
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